Five Animals Kung Fu?

[wukong-zero]

Hmmmm I may have to do some library research and see if an image this painting can be found. (I haven’t been able to dig it up on the web.) An article on Shamanism would be quite interesting. I’m not sure of the veracity of the reference but, I’ve read that silk fragments from the Mawangdui tomb contain pictures of shamanic gestures imitating animal movements…..which served as a foundation for the “Five Animal Frolics.”

[SimonM]

SimonM: Yes, but you did support us when you weren't in China, and that's great. When you're in China, reading our mag is a bit redundant - like reading a Hawaii magazine in Hawaii. Just go out and experience it.

And I will continue to read your magazine when I return from China. Meanwhile I AM living it out here. Can't find sparring partners. But on the other hand I'm finally going to Longquan (which I've wanted to do for ages) in 13 days and have already gone to Shaolin.

[green_willow]

green_willow: I do get a lot of ideas from the forum, just as I hope all of you do. It's a great place to discuss research and see hot ORA girls. Seriously, though, most of our submissions are free-lance, so it's not like we can request research on specific topics and have those requests met satisfactorily. I have my research, of course, but I chart my own course there. Such is my perogative. The idea of a tiger claw vs. boxer punch doesn't intrigue me at all, frankly. Versus articles generally suck. Applications are so relative that to say that one is better or worse is so short-sighted and limited. You might just as well ask 'what's the best style?' It's a newbie question.

Wasn't there an article why compares southern eagle vs northern eagle. I appreciate your sincerity but please don't avoid the question. How practical is the tiger claw versus a boxers punch?

[5Animals1Path]

As far as why it's not seen in the octagon, or the ring for that matter, is pretty simple.



Most people suck at it. They suck bad. (Myself included, most certainly.)


It's movements are extremely different from the ways your average person is used to moving. The way you move has to be changed almost entirely. The strikes, for the most part, are not meant to be blunt trauma inducing strikes, but as Gene said, rakes, stabs, claws, and other ways of generally showing the inside of the opponents body to the sun. If someone takes the time neccesary to train in 5 animal fist and become good enough for the way the style moves to be the way they move, they'd then have to re-train themselves again to modify for the ring. You don't see it in the ring because it's design is not to one that is made for compeition, for marketablity, or for the guy who likes to throw his bulk at his opponent until one of them hits the floor.

This is pretty much the same for any style you don't see much in the ring, some exceptions withstanding. It's not interested in ring fighting, anymore then a marine biologist has a career interest in a lecture on astronomy.

[green_willow]

As far as why it's not seen in the octagon, or the ring for that matter, is pretty simple.



Most people suck at it. They suck bad. (Myself included, most certainly.)


It's movements are extremely different from the ways your average person is used to moving. The way you move has to be changed almost entirely. The strikes, for the most part, are not meant to be blunt trauma inducing strikes, but as Gene said, rakes, stabs, claws, and other ways of generally showing the inside of the opponents body to the sun. If someone takes the time neccesary to train in 5 animal fist and become good enough for the way the style moves to be the way they move, they'd then have to re-train themselves again to modify for the ring. You don't see it in the ring because it's design is not to one that is made for compeition, for marketablity, or for the guy who likes to throw his bulk at his opponent until one of them hits the floor.

This is pretty much the same for any style you don't see much in the ring, some exceptions withstanding. It's not interested in ring fighting, anymore then a marine biologist has a career interest in a lecture on astronomy.

Maybe the 5 animal fist is not a good example. How about we compare like with like. BJJ is a grappling art and so is eagle claw - shouldn't we be seeing both represented in the UFC? Fact is we don't see eagle claw or even the stand up joint locks to imobilise a person.

[GeneChing]

Love that quote, 5Animals1Path. I may even plaguerize it someday.

SimonM: Nothing gives me more pleasure than hearing that one of our readers is having a grand adventure, especially in China. That's really great. And I envy your trip to longquan. Like I said on your other thread, I've never been there...yet.

green_willow: My boxer's punch will beat your eagle claw. My eagle claw will beat your boxer's punch. Are you getting it yet?

[green_willow]

green_willow: My boxer's punch will beat your eagle claw. My eagle claw will beat your boxer's punch. Are you getting it yet?

I'm not asking the question where the answer is: "it's not the style its the person".

The question I'm asking is :" if it is the person and not the style then why don't you see representation of both BJJ and eagle claw in UFC when they are grappling arts"? Instead you see Judo, BJJ, aikido, wrestling, roman wrestling, russian wrestling styles - i.e. almost every other grappling style except eagle claw. why?

[5Animals1Path]

Go right ahead Gene. Just make sure you use it in an article about 5 Animals.

[GeneChing]

The funny thing is that I have a 5 animal article in the works. I'm not sure I can work that line in, given the tone of it, but I will give it a shot. No promises there.

g_w: As for Eagle Claw, while it does have a lot of qinna in it, but I wouldn't classify it as a groundfighting grappling style like the rest that you mention. Given the arena of UFC, it lends itself to groundfighting. Eagle Claw qinna locks are more standing upper body locks and throws, not so much about the groundfighting. After all, eagles fly. They don't wrestle. Your question might be better phrased with Dog boxing than eagle, since that's more ground oriented. Now there's been increasing interest in Dog as the 'Chinese response' to the current fad of groundfighting. As I've mentioned before, we ran an article on dog in our Shaolin special 2005 that was very well recieved, mostly for this reason, I'd say. Unfortunately, dog is fairly rare. I've only seen a very limited amount of demostrations of it - I'm hoping to see more.

[green_willow]

The funny thing is that I have a 5 animal article in the works. I'm not sure I can work that line in, given the tone of it, but I will give it a shot. No promises there.

g_w: As for Eagle Claw, while it does have a lot of qinna in it, but I wouldn't classify it as a groundfighting grappling style like the rest that you mention. Given the arena of UFC, it lends itself to groundfighting. Eagle Claw qinna locks are more standing upper body locks and throws, not so much about the groundfighting. After all, eagles fly. They don't wrestle. Your question might be better phrased with Dog boxing than eagle, since that's more ground oriented. Now there's been increasing interest in Dog as the 'Chinese response' to the current fad of groundfighting. As I've mentioned before, we ran an article on dog in our Shaolin special 2005 that was very well recieved, mostly for this reason, I'd say. Unfortunately, dog is fairly rare. I've only seen a very limited amount of demostrations of it - I'm hoping to see more.

Eagle claw is stand up grappling and BJJ is get down grappling. that I already know. However, both methods are used to immobilise your opponent.

The question is why isn't stand up grappling in eagle claw used to immobilise the person in UFC whereas get down grappling is used?

If it's not the art but the person, then I would expect seeing maybe 50/50 of either one used. But that's not the case is it? I've watched many many UFC matches and never once seen someone being imobilised while his is still standing. Why?

Yes Dogs are rare. that's why I didn't make the comparison of who might be the top dog or under dog in the UFC through using Dog kung fu in this case. smart use of words isn't it? I'm just sooooo smart - don't you all just love me

[GeneChing]

g_w: The answer to your question lies in law enforcement techniques. Look there. We love everyone. It's a Buddhist thing. Well, maybe we don't love the icchantikas, but everyone else is cool, even the trolls. It's the icchantika trolls we have to purge.

[green_willow]

g_w: The answer to your question lies in law enforcement techniques. Look there. We love everyone. It's a Buddhist thing. Well, maybe we don't love the icchantikas, but everyone else is cool, even the trolls. It's the icchantika trolls we have to purge.

As for law enforcement - I've seen the joint lock techniques. I've also been in riots where ppl get led away by police. I've observed that if someone seriously doesn't want to get led away those joint lock techniques don't work - it takes 3 or maybe 4 police to grab each of the person's arm and legs and carry him away. That got me thinking - what is law enforcement lacking that eagle claw has???? thta's because in eagle claw books it shows such a clean lock & subdue. Or are those eagle claw books not a good representation of real life?

But what I have also seen is in UFC 1:1 where ground technique can subdue a person if done correctly.

what is an icchantikas troll? I have no idea what you're talking about but I unserstand that you had a massive troll problem on this forum in the past. But I'm happy that you cleaned up their act.

[Dim Wit Mak]

As for law enforcement - I've seen the joint lock techniques. I've also been in riots where ppl get led away by police. I've observed that if someone seriously doesn't want to get led away those joint lock techniques don't work - it takes 3 or maybe 4 police to grab each of the person's arm and legs and carry him away. That got me thinking - what is law enforcement lacking that eagle claw has???? thta's because in eagle claw books it shows such a clean lock & subdue. Or are those eagle claw books not a good representation of real life?

But what I have also seen is in UFC 1:1 where ground technique can subdue a person if done correctly.

what is an icchantikas troll? I have no idea what you're talking about but I unserstand that you had a massive troll problem on this forum in the past. But I'm happy that you cleaned up their act.

There are all sorts of things that "work" for law enforcement and other subduers. I'll give you a few, such as busted knee caps, busted heads, broken arms, wrist flexes that turn into broken wrists, gouged out eyes, snapped spines, snapped necks, broken ankles. These are all legit for certain enforcers who can make sure there is no "footage at 11:00" but not for uniformed folks who may have video cameras focused on them or have to answer questions later or who understand the ethics of law enforcement in a democratic society. Any joint lock must have the possibility of leading to a break or severe joint damage when non compliance is in the mind of the perp. Are you going to try to choke out some guy whose buddy may stick a Bowie between your ribs?

Hey, I love watching boxing and MMA in controlled environments. Great athletes and great contests. Almost everyone gets to come back and complete another day. Altercations outside of this environment often leave grieving widows of both good and bad guys.

[green_willow]

There are all sorts of things that "work" for law enforcement and other subduers. I'll give you a few, such as busted knee caps, busted heads, broken arms, wrist flexes that turn into broken wrists, gouged out eyes, snapped spines, snapped necks, broken ankles. These are all legit for certain enforcers who can make sure there is no "footage at 11:00" but not for uniformed folks who may have video cameras focused on them or have to answer questions later or who understand the ethics of law enforcement in a democratic society. Any joint lock must have the possibility of leading to a break or severe joint damage when non compliance is in the mind of the perp. Are you going to try to choke out some guy whose buddy may stick a Bowie between your ribs?

Hey, I love watching boxing and MMA in controlled environments. Great athletes and great contests. Almost everyone gets to come back and complete another day. Altercations outside of this environment often leave grieving widows of both good and bad guys.

There are also techniques in MMA or BJJ that can be made deadly. It's possible to convert a choke hold into breaking the spin. It is also possible to go for small joint locks etc. but of course even if there aren't explict rules, there are unwritten conducts between players as to how far they should go. I'm not saying that it is a game of tag. clearly they aren't holding back much - just saying that MMA can be taken even further.

In your case of joint locks it also depends on how far you want to take it. There's a ponit between a break and causing intense pain. If you can get that happening wouldn't that be enough for a submission hold? especally if you could be hitting the opponent with the other arm. That's why I'm questioning why eagle calw isn't used in UFC??????

You made a good point about ppl with cameras. You have to try to hide your hits. don't you think that's a constraint which is not there in the UFC?

On one hand you have reduced freedom of movement and on the other you have increased freedom of movement. Just donesn't answer my original question as to why eagle claw is not represented in the UFC?

[Dim Wit Mak]

There are also techniques in MMA or BJJ that can be made deadly. It's possible to convert a choke hold into breaking the spin. It is also possible to go for small joint locks etc. but of course even if there aren't explict rules, there are unwritten conducts between players as to how far they should go. I'm not saying that it is a game of tag. clearly they aren't holding back much - just saying that MMA can be taken even further.

In your case of joint locks it also depends on how far you want to take it. There's a ponit between a break and causing intense pain. If you can get that happening wouldn't that be enough for a submission hold? especally if you could be hitting the opponent with the other arm. That's why I'm questioning why eagle calw isn't used in UFC??????

You made a good point about ppl with cameras. You have to try to hide your hits. don't you think that's a constraint which is not there in the UFC?

On one hand you have reduced freedom of movement and on the other you have increased freedom of movement. Just donesn't answer my original question as to why eagle claw is not represented in the UFC?

I'll probably get Melvin Guillard PO's at me, but perhaps a fictitious interview can shed some light on the question posed. He is being interviewd by Kung Fu Magazine.

KFM: Melvin, why is it beneficial to study MMA and compete in UFC?
MG: By studying MMA I learn a lot of great stuff, and I love the competition in UFC.
KFM: Having studied MMA, have you studied any Eagle Claw, Tiger Claw, or any other kung fu styles?
MG: Kung Fu isn't my primary area of interest, but I have borrowed techniques from many styles including Kung Fu. After all, I am a MMA.
KFM: Would you like to see more Eagle Claw kung fu in UFC?
MG: Hey, I believe in competition, but not mayhem. If we start ripping out throats, breaking bones, breaking wrists, or pecking out eyes with eagle beaks, that would be really uncool and gross. The repercussions would be tremendous and unacceptable. We want to make wampum and compete, not become unsexy and handicapped. It's nice to have a life span a little longer than some 90 day wonder lieutenant who stepped into a hot zone in Viet Nam. I know I could do Eagle Claw and Chin Na stuff, but this opens up a two way street.
KFM: Should we allow a little Leopard Kung Fu?
MG: Do you know what a Leopard Paw to the wrong area of the neck can do?
We want competitors, not deceased or handicapped warriors. It's better to go have a beer with these guys and party than attend funerals, and suffer retribution. Would you want to look into the eyes of these guys families?
KFM: Where do you see MMA competition in 25 years.
MG: Well, with all the people who want to see realism and blood, some will want to pull out all the stops. Why not have a big arena, where a tiger stylist can take on a tiger, or a leopard stylist a leopard stylist, a leopard. The Eagle stylist would have a problem, because he can't fly to catch up with the eagle. They might get rid of that small octagon and all the rules. If history repeats itself, we may go back to the ways of ancient Rome.
KFM: Thank you.
MG: Thank you.

By the way, I am not associated with Lau family Eagle Claw, but I have studied Chin Na, Eagle Claw techniques, as well as other animal styles. Just some thoughts on the subject of Eagle Claw in UFC, and admit there are no stone tablets from Mt. Sinai associated with this. If Melvin Guillard is offended in any way, I'll substitute the name of a fictitious UFC participant and offer my apologies.