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Thread: Five Animals Kung Fu?

  1. #31
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    Shamanism aside though there are some good, strong, applicable techniques in Shaolin five animal. You just have to train them with that in mind...
    Simon McNeil
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  2. #32
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    there is a physicality to relate to as well in regards to this.

    each 'animal' is a differing way of martially expressing. the forces, the step, the feeling of each is different from each in a lot of ways.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson
    when you were born could you crawl? when you were finally crawling, could you walk? when you learned to walk finally, could you run with ease? when you came to be able to run, could you jump? how far could you jump?

    each animal is a part of the whole. One cannot move to the top of the teachings and have complete understanding without understanding equally all the parts that make the final form.

    All methods that are of any value are progressive in how they are learned.

    In other words, your dragon style wouldn't be much if you didn't understand all the other components of it and that understanding takes time and practice.

    people without patience for that will not get past the gate far enough to actually have a real look at what it is they are doing because they will always wrestle with questins of what's missing and the like.
    That's exactly my point. There are kung fu styles like tiger claw where the student only studies tiger. Then there is mantis, eagle or white crane. It seems to me that you're saying that it is not possible for single animalist to be as good as multi-animalist or dragon stylist.... There are eventually more animals that the 5 you mentioned - does it mean that we need to master all of them?

    If that's the case why is it we never see 5 animal stylist fight octogon etc. They should have the ferocity of a tiger, speed of a leopard, agility of a crane and flexibility of a snake to stop anyone grappling them and do their own counter?

    What about dog style kung fu which goes to the ground. Wouldn't that alone be enough for the octogon?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by green_willow
    That's exactly my point. There are kung fu styles like tiger claw where the student only studies tiger. Then there is mantis, eagle or white crane. It seems to me that you're saying that it is not possible for single animalist to be as good as multi-animalist or dragon stylist.... There are eventually more animals that the 5 you mentioned - does it mean that we need to master all of them?

    If that's the case why is it we never see 5 animal stylist fight octogon etc. They should have the ferocity of a tiger, speed of a leopard, agility of a crane and flexibility of a snake to stop anyone grappling them and do their own counter?

    What about dog style kung fu which goes to the ground. Wouldn't that alone be enough for the octogon?
    I'm not fully understanding what you're getting at, but I would say that anyone who trains for the octagon (ufc) can find themselves in it regardless of the style. It is safe to say that due to rule formation, the training methodologies used in ufc type or mma matches is not about discovering the path of kungfu, it's about competitive combat sport and the way you train for it is to score points or get a knockout.

    Its a different training path. If you are going to go and fight competitively, you will have to train for that venue. Doing so doesn't require paying attention to the minutia of the development of the traits associated with animals styles and instead revolves around training the fighter to have proficiency in thoses ranges of attack and defense that are part of the sport. IE: you're not going to train a lot of pressure point striking such as is found in snake style and instead will be working on a much smaller toolbox that will give you what you need for teh 3 ranges(stand up/clinch/ground).

    The way a rock musician learns tunes is wholly different from how someone in a symphony orchestra would learn them. They are both music, but different methods of learning, different performance, different expression, different intent and purpose.

    same family of ideas though, just varied paths and perspectives.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  5. #35
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    pentanimal octogon

    Dog style for the octogon indeed! We ran a dog boxing article in Shaolin special 2005. It was well received.

    It's not the style, it's the person. If you're a dog spirit, then dog boxing would fit you well (and this is your year ). If you're a dog spirit and focus on tiger style, it would be a wasting yourself. But if you're a tiger spirit, well, tiger is for you. If you not connected to any animal spirit, then maybe tasting a little of all of them would be better, or avoiding it all together. But you're not going to know unless you do your own research. Nevermind the octogon, unless you're an octagonal spirit.

    It would be better for your study for you not to focus on which style might be superior overall because there is no answer to that. Focus on which style would be best for you. Discovering that answer is the heart of the warrior's journey.
    Gene Ching
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  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing
    Dog style for the octogon indeed! We ran a dog boxing article in Shaolin special 2005. It was well received.

    It's not the style, it's the person. If you're a dog spirit, then dog boxing would fit you well (and this is your year ). If you're a dog spirit and focus on tiger style, it would be a wasting yourself. But if you're a tiger spirit, well, tiger is for you. If you not connected to any animal spirit, then maybe tasting a little of all of them would be better, or avoiding it all together. But you're not going to know unless you do your own research. Nevermind the octogon, unless you're an octagonal spirit.

    It would be better for your study for you not to focus on which style might be superior overall because there is no answer to that. Focus on which style would be best for you. Discovering that answer is the heart of the warrior's journey.
    Great. you've thought of everything. could you send me the article on dog fist?

    I understand its not the style its the person. But within a style why isn't there anyone from the 5 animal fist competing in the octogon, when there are many people from the bjj who are competing there?

    To an extent there is a superior style from earlier discussion. for example dragon contains the attributes of all 5 animals. Wouldn't a given individual who has mastery of all 5 animals become better than that individual who only has mastery of one?

    Extrapolating this further, BJJ only contains human movements, therefore wouldn't the combined abilities of 5 animals + the natural abilities of what a human can do be potentially better than BJJ?

  7. #37
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    actually any martial andeavour only contains human movements.

    when someone says "move like a tiger" it's not a literal thing, its figurative. It means with the traits of.

    also, i'm not sure someone who has study 5a hasn't entered into any sanctined fights. who knows really, a lot of guys don't go through their training and lineage immediately following a fight. But in many interviews with many of these guys, you'll find that in many of them there is a ood deal of traditional martial arts training in their backgrounds.

    Training for that venue is just that. It evens the playing field with it's rule set and people train to follow those rules while maintaining what they need to compete and win.

    It's about reduction in that sense, but then, so is geting a grasp on your kungfu. reduce the floss on the mill and maintain the essence.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  8. #38
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    No tigers in the octogon...

    We've gone over the whole kung fu vs. BJJ so many times on this forum, but since this one is a bit more specific, I field it once more. Despite the No holds barred claim of many of the fight games like K-1, UFC, Pride, etc., there are holds barred. The primary weapon of Tiger style is the tiger claw; that technique has many applications, but the dominent one is akin to an eye-rake. Ripping and clawing are not really condoned in NHB, especially to the eyes. Crane relies heavily on a peck to the eyes. Snake also makes heavy use of eye jabs. It's the difference between life-and-death fights and sport fighting. Never confuse the two.

    As for the article, you can get a copy of our Shaolin special 2005 here.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson
    actually any martial andeavour only contains human movements.

    when someone says "move like a tiger" it's not a literal thing, its figurative. It means with the traits of.

    also, i'm not sure someone who has study 5a hasn't entered into any sanctined fights. who knows really, a lot of guys don't go through their training and lineage immediately following a fight. But in many interviews with many of these guys, you'll find that in many of them there is a ood deal of traditional martial arts training in their backgrounds.
    There's actually a lot of animal imitation in shaolin kung fu - for example monkey kung fu they try to act like a monkey. It is both figurative and literal. Question is are these traits practical? If so shouldn't they have a consistent leve of out performance in the octogan?

    Measuring how one performs in a street fight is no less arbitrary. for example you are a BJJ expert and some untrained fella wacked you unconcious from behind. How can you compare the value of BJJ skills versus some old grandma who was also knocked unconcious from behind? Sure, Octogon is a sanitised version you can argue, but at least you're pitting 2 players in a controlled environment.

    Yes I agree many people have traditional background or even have a book on 5 animals on the shelf. But 5 animals is not a current style that they train in, but I've seen Judo, kick boxing, boxing, thai boxing, BJJ, roman wrestling. Why is this the case??? shouldn't current styles that the train in also include eagle claw, tiger claw, leapord, lama white crane just to name afew?

    especially when these other style have been around for so much longer in the US compared with BJJ which is a recent creation. It is said that BJJ is the preferred style they use, why not eagle claw isn't there 108 ways to seize grapple and tackle?

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing
    We've gone over the whole kung fu vs. BJJ so many times on this forum, but since this one is a bit more specific, I field it once more. Despite the No holds barred claim of many of the fight games like K-1, UFC, Pride, etc., there are holds barred. The primary weapon of Tiger style is the tiger claw; that technique has many applications, but the dominent one is akin to an eye-rake. Ripping and clawing are not really condoned in NHB, especially to the eyes. Crane relies heavily on a peck to the eyes. Snake also makes heavy use of eye jabs. It's the difference between life-and-death fights and sport fighting. Never confuse the two.

    As for the article, you can get a copy of our Shaolin special 2005 here.
    Yes I agree street fights need not pan out the same way as a ring match. But don't you think that a style that is based on clawing someone's face is less practical than boxing which involves punching someone's face?

    Isn't easier to hit someone's face than it is to claw their face out? To claw someone's face you got to make contact first so it would seem that a hit preceeds a claw. what do you think?

    thanks for the link, please pdf a copy of the article and send it to me. I'm not after the whole magazine. thanks again.

  11. #41
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    Support our forum, green_willow

    You can buy the magazine just like everyone else. What do you think pays for this forum that you are using here? If you're *really* serious about your research, investing in our publications should be automatic.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  12. #42
    Gene,
    Speaking of publications I hope there are plans for additional articles on animal styles….I have enjoyed the readings so far. I would like a bit more details on the silk painting “A Bathing Monkey Calls” mentioned in the King Kong article…..I have heard about this painting before, but have not been able to track down much about it. If you, or anyone else, has any info it would be most appreciated. As you stated before the animal styles have certain element of shamanism. As an artist, I think that examining such ancient art can help to understand the shamanistic/spiritual connection with the animal styles. Thanks!

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing
    You can buy the magazine just like everyone else. What do you think pays for this forum that you are using here? If you're *really* serious about your research, investing in our publications should be automatic.
    Gene,

    the benefits of the forum goes both ways. There are many valid questions that can become research topics for your magazines. For example the question I raised about the tiger claw vs boxer punch in terms of practicality. what do you think?

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing
    You can buy the magazine just like everyone else. What do you think pays for this forum that you are using here? If you're *really* serious about your research, investing in our publications should be automatic.
    I wish I could buy your publication but it is no distributed in China.
    Simon McNeil
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    Be on the lookout for the Black Trillium, a post-apocalyptic wuxia novel released by Brain Lag Publishing available in all major online booksellers now.
    Visit me at Simon McNeil - the Blog for thoughts on books and stuff.

  15. #45
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    tiger spanks the monkey

    wukong-zero: There will always be animal styles articles in Kung Fu Tai Chi simply because we're solely dedicated to Chinese styles and that's the nature of the beast. I've been chipping at a shamanism/pseudo kung fu piece, but it's not ready yet. Perhaps that's why my post went that direction. As to the painting mentioned in the Kong article, I've not seen it either. I'd be interested to see it.

    green_willow: I do get a lot of ideas from the forum, just as I hope all of you do. It's a great place to discuss research and see hot ORA girls. Seriously, though, most of our submissions are free-lance, so it's not like we can request research on specific topics and have those requests met satisfactorily. I have my research, of course, but I chart my own course there. Such is my perogative. The idea of a tiger claw vs. boxer punch doesn't intrigue me at all, frankly. Versus articles generally suck. Applications are so relative that to say that one is better or worse is so short-sighted and limited. You might just as well ask 'what's the best style?' It's a newbie question.

    SimonM: Yes, but you did support us when you weren't in China, and that's great. When you're in China, reading our mag is a bit redundant - like reading a Hawaii magazine in Hawaii. Just go out and experience it.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

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