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Thread: Five Animals Kung Fu?

  1. #61
    The point with China Na is to be able to subdue without breaking. I agree that clawing the throat can be dangerous but choking an opponent is just as dangerous. In fact, a front on claw to the throat is easier to counter than a choke hold with the forearms from the back.

    I agree there are dangerous targets like the eye, throat and groin. But in reality even if you make those as legit targets, they are very difficult to hit. You need to have an underlying fighting skill in to hit them. Therefore by ruling out these targets, you can still test one's underlying fighting skill.

    Agreed octogan does not test everything, but it is a level playing field. Therefore, won't you think that if eagle claw, tiger, leapord etc are valied styles, ruling out 5% or less of the target area of a person should still allow the styles to work?

  2. #62
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    Chin Na is about not breaking if you don't have to and breaking if you have to. Kung Fu isn't really about sport. It's about avoiding fighting if possible, and screwing people over real bad or even killing if need be. When I studied Tiger Claw back in the 1980s I thought it was great stuff, and it was. It was great for nuking the other guy. As a public school teacher, it finally dawned on me that I had better study Jujitsu, because launching into a tiger claw attack in a school setting just wasn't good for anyone or my career. I have used jujitsu on a number of occasions and haven't been sued yet. Although I have seen teenage girls do a tiger claw imitation with their scratching, I would never even think of using it except under the most dire circumstances. The Chin Na, jujitsu, and restraining holds I have studied, and had to use, have been invaluable. I even studied with a guy who had worked in a nut house and he showed me some leverages, not involving Chin Na, that do not use any type of joint locks.
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  3. #63
    Exactly, so why is chin na or eagle claw not being used in UFC when you can subdue without breaking.

    You say that kung fu is about nuking about the other guy. I would also think that you exercise some restraint when you train in class and still enough to know that your art is effective

    If that's the case, there must be degrees of how much you can hold back i.e. there're different degreess of inrtensity ranging from class practice to total nuclear warfare correct? Then it stands to reason that you need not go all out in a sports environment.

    The question as to why tiger claw, chin na and eagle claw is not being used in UFC remains un answered.

    teenage girls showing their claws is rather cute - hardly considered a nuclear threat.

  4. #64
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    eyes, throat and groin

    On the contrary, I've found that the eyes and throat are rather easy targets to hit. Even if you miss, they tend to draw an over-reaction, which creates an opening. Even when I used to fence and we worn masks, striking to the eyes in this manner was very effective. It's all about second intention. The groin is hard to hit because it's easier to protect and the flinch response is more pronounced. But because the eyes are needed for your opponent to see you, they are always open, both literally and tactically.

    But in answer to your obsession with the octogon, g_r, those methods aren't used because they aren't effective for the octogon. The octogon is a very specific arena - not everyone can get in there, only a select group of fighters and I've known a few of them. None of them are teenage girls. In all honesty, I might be more inclined to watch it if it was teenage girls.
    Gene Ching
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  5. #65
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    In all honesty, I might be more inclined to watch it if it was teenage girls.
    fuggin A, G~, me too!
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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing
    On the contrary, I've found that the eyes and throat are rather easy targets to hit. Even if you miss, they tend to draw an over-reaction, which creates an opening.
    I find that eyes is extremely hard to hit. so it's the throat unless you do something to get their head to jerk forward to create an opening. Depends on how the opponent backs away and covers up- sometimes they might cover the most likely kill zone so if you go in you get hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing
    Even when I used to fence and we worn masks, striking to the eyes in this manner was very effective. It's all about second intention. The groin is hard to hit because it's easier to protect and the flinch response is more pronounced. But because the eyes are needed for your opponent to see you, they are always open, both literally and tactically. .
    Depends again at really close range you should be going by feel rather than sight. Mid range yes, you'll be watching your opponent's shoulders to see how they move. close range you can sense how the move from contact. Not easy to strike someone's eyes or flinch at mid range.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing
    But in answer to your obsession with the octogon, g_r, those methods aren't used because they aren't effective for the octogon. .
    Yes you've answered my question - it is the style that isn't effective. not the person.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing
    The octogon is a very specific arena - not everyone can get in there, only a select group of fighters and I've known a few of them. None of them are teenage girls. In all honesty, I might be more inclined to watch it if it was teenage girls.
    Yes the select group of fighters are street fighters, brawlers and people who fight regardless of martial arts background. Strange these ppl don't profess to know iron body, chi kung, special breaking skills. They just know how to hit ppl or wrestle ppl until they submit. I just wonder what all the chi kung and iron body amounts to. I mean Iron body - should be able to cream any flesh and blood mortal.

  7. #67
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    I've been hit in the throat twice. I've also hit somebody in the throat once. All three instances lead to vomit.

    It might not be something that always works but when it works it works well.
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  8. #68
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    The logic flaw of NHB

    If you take a real look at NHB/octogon fights, you'll notice one thing really quickly. It's all the same body type. It's all huge guys. I was very serious about my comment about teenage girls. You don't see them in the octogon. You barely see any women at all. Nor do you see ectomorphic body types, nor kids or older people, nor people with anything but a wrestler's body. So of course wrestling succeeds there. You don't have to be a martial artist to be a great fighter. You just have to be a big dude. Big dudes don't need martial arts. But, and here's the logic flaw, what if you're not a big dude? Most of us aren't. I'm a dude, but I'm under 6 feet and less than 150 (on a good day ). If I have to fight a big dude, there's no way I'd wrestle him. He'd out bulk me.

    As tempted as you might be, don't be tricked by half-nekkid men mounting each other. Consider the needs of teenage girls.
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  9. #69
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    I'm a big guy AND I like martial arts.
    Simon McNeil
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    Be on the lookout for the Black Trillium, a post-apocalyptic wuxia novel released by Brain Lag Publishing available in all major online booksellers now.
    Visit me at Simon McNeil - the Blog for thoughts on books and stuff.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing
    If you take a real look at NHB/octogon fights, you'll notice one thing really quickly. It's all the same body type. It's all huge guys. I was very serious about my comment about teenage girls. You don't see them in the octogon. You barely see any women at all. Nor do you see ectomorphic body types, nor kids or older people, nor people with anything but a wrestler's body. So of course wrestling succeeds there. You don't have to be a martial artist to be a great fighter. You just have to be a big dude. Big dudes don't need martial arts. But, and here's the logic flaw, what if you're not a big dude? Most of us aren't. I'm a dude, but I'm under 6 feet and less than 150 (on a good day ). If I have to fight a big dude, there's no way I'd wrestle him. He'd out bulk me.

    As tempted as you might be, don't be tricked by half-nekkid men mounting each other. Consider the needs of teenage girls.
    Same body type? not really, there are stikers who aren't stout. I mean they do have muscles but not built like a wrestler.

    In any case, a grappling style like eagle claw doesn't involve going down low to wrestle with the big boys. You're supposed to be able to claw and subdue ppl in a standing position. In every eagle claw book I've read - not one has said that it doesn't work for certain body types. In fact if it's for street self defence it should work for all body types. and in fact the octogan is a much safer place to test out your art than not knowing how it works in the street.

    If you say that big dudes don't need martial arts - you're basically saying that all martial arts is worthless. If that's what you're saying then the same can be applied to small dudes vs small dudes or teenage girls vs sissy boys.

    Even if it is only big dudes who go into the octogon it doesn't explain why there are no eagle claw stylist unless no eagle claw stylist are big dudes? which seems unlikely because eagle claw like BJJ or wat ever style is open to the gfeneral population for training.

    It's ok for 1/2 naked men to mount one another - as long as they are cowboys and keep their hats on yeeeee haaaaaaaa.

  11. #71
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    It's ok for 1/2 naked men to mount one another - as long as they are cowboys and keep their hats on yeeeee haaaaaaaa.
    sounds like a promotional piece for 'brokeback ufc'

    notable line "I wish I could quit you vito belfor"

    lol.
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  12. #72
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    You haven't really been in a fight, have you g_r?

    Of course big guys don't necessarily need martial arts, but that doesn't make martial arts worthless? Quite the contrary. My point is that we all aren't big guys. There's always a bigger guy...
    Gene Ching
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  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing
    Of course big guys don't necessarily need martial arts, but that doesn't make martial arts worthless? Quite the contrary. My point is that we all aren't big guys. There's always a bigger guy...
    You said "Big dudes don't need martial arts." earlier which is different from saying that big guys don't NECESSARILY need martial arts now.

    But even on your revised statement - the same can be said that small ppl don't necessarly need martial arts because there is always someone smaller than you.

    your revised statement is therefore a truism and doesn't get you point anywhere.

    Still doesn't answer the qestion why:

    1) Why don't eagle claw books say that thge style works on ppl up to X kgs heavier than you?

    2) what is the value add of MA agaisnt a bigger guy? sure he has more weight but don't the martial artist have chi kung, iron body, iron palm etc..... or is the solution just to eat more and put on weight?

  14. #74
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    Let's not descend to semantics...

    Let descend to mathematics.

    g-w et al's equation:
    octogon/nhb = 'real' fighting
    traditional techniques (eagle claw, iron palm, et al) are not seen in the octogon/nhb
    therefore traditional techniques are not seen in 'real' fighting
    therefore traditional techniques are 'worthless'

    I'm substituting traditional techniques with teenage girls:
    octogon/nhb = 'real' fighting
    teenage girls are not seen in the octogon/nhb
    therefore teenage girls are not seen in 'real' fighting
    therefore teenage girls are 'worthless'

    Honestly, I respect octogon/NHB fighters, but the perspective that this is all the defines martial arts is so limiting. My personal interest in martial arts is swordsmanship. Swordsmanship has no place in the octogon/NHB so I'm completely out of the equation. If you like NHB, that's awesome, but you're arguing tradition against a swordsman and you're just going to get trolled. That's no way to acheive your PhD.
    Gene Ching
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  15. #75
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    Gene,
    Your argument about big guys is flawed because the UFC does not have a light-weight division. They removed it for money reasons. There are plenty of lightweight guys out there that can fight in the ring, but the professional venues are limited because the heavy-weights draw the crowds.

    And if you think you have to have a wrestling physique, check out Fedor sometime. Or even Tank Abbot.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

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