How effective is Wing Chun?

[Liddel]

You seem to have mentioned a few times about getting close to students of GM IP but this is not the be all and end all. Judge the Sifus you go try out on thier own merits - and i certainly agree with an earlier call - do you think your sifu can fight ?

Just for another perspective -
My Sifu had a similar experience with GM Ip to STONECRUSHERS.

GM Ip asked him to attack him and he drew his own conclusions from the outcome.
for the next ten years he followed Lok Yiu a student of GM Ip and often touched hands with the old man and every time the did, Ip Man asked him to Hit him, no pads, full power.

Also they Did Full contact Gor Sao and the equivalent of sparring with no Gloves OFTEN.

To just learn a martial art, fine dont spar, but to learn a self defence - sparring is a MUST !

So if your Sifu advocates no sparring - dont run for the door - ASK WHY ?
Then draw your own conclusions based on what you want to use it for .

No point learning to ride a motor bike and then driving a Car to work every day - your setting yourself up to CRASH IMO

[Wing Chun Dummy]

at the end of the day i dont wanna get hurt in training .... i'm pretty good at avoiding fights in real life so chances are i'll never need to fight... but training whilst not getting badly hurt is still an advantage over not training at all... still worth doing.

question: what if you get an injury in training then have a real confrontation the next day? you're gonna wish you stayed safe the day before in training, right?

[Kapten Klutz]

at the end of the day i dont wanna get hurt in training .... i'm pretty good at avoiding fights in real life so chances are i'll never need to fight... but training whilst not getting badly hurt is still an advantage over not training at all... still worth doing.

I agree with this attitude. I'm willing to risk the occasional injury, but it gets tiresome to feel like I got hit by a car day after day, week after week. It's where I'm happy as long as I can sleep on my right side OR my left side. When both ache like heck it's gonna be a long night. I eat aspirins like popcorn.Maybe it's just a phase and I'll get tougher, but right now I'm struggling to hang in there.

[Wing Chun Dummy]

Taoist quote:

Measure and pound it: it will not long survive.

[Knifefighter]

I like to ask you a question?do you think your sifu can fight? if he can't Fight then why are you there?If he can then maybe you should listen to him.I'm sure he knows alittle more then you do...

It doesn’t matter how good a fighter the instructor is. If he never has the students spar THEY will never become good.

There mind set is kill kill kill.When your 60's do you still want this mindset or do you want something more out of your art....

Absolutely! When you’re in your sixties, this is an even more important consideration. As you get older, an assailant’s attack can have longer and more devastating repercussions to your physical and emotional well-being. That mindset will make you less likely to become a victim.

PLUS the time/energy/sweat/dedication that said student brings to the practice PLUS the context of the engagement, when and if it does happen, that will ultimately decide the outcome (and thus effectiveness) of the training.

The training IS the style.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Their mind set is kill kill kill.When your 60's do you still want this mindset or do you want something more out of your art...."


"Absolutely! When you’re in your sixties, this is an even more important consideration. As you get older, an assailant’s attack can have longer and more devastating repercussions to your physical and emotional well-being. That mindset will make you less likely to become a victim." (Knifefighter)


***DON'T KNOW how old Knifefighter (Dale Frank) is...but as a 55 year old man - I can second his comments. My mindset is much more dangerous to potential assailants/opponents now than it's ever been, precisely because I know that at my age injuries can occur easier and take much longer to heal. Therefore if I have to fight someone/defend myself - I want to take them out really fast and really hard...and so I'd be much faster now to try to do something serious to the guy.

[Liddel]

'Wing Chun Dummy' & Kaptain Klutz i certainly can see your POV and i also dont want to get hurt during training.

However its seems your view of sparring is quite constricting.....
You dont have to go full power / hard out - you can tame it down and still throw punches and kicks with less power.

My sparring is most of the time 80 - 90% anyway - but thats just me.
If i do get injured or sore even, i can easily tame it down or work on something else - this attitude seems like a cop out IMO. (with relation to ME )

I sliced my index finger to the bone recently and i still went to training to watch and talk with sifu.... he said - "you still have three other limbs you can use...."
I spent the rest of the night doing leg strength and kicking training.

And i felt good after too ( my finger throbbed a bit though )

You know there is some merit also in training when you feel sore or tired or just not 'in the mood', i believe in Murphy's Law - Life will throw a confrontation your way just when you dont feel like it , when you've had a few to drink or just finished traininng and are dog tired or you just dont feel like it.
A fight will rearely come when your full of energy very alert, and in the mood for some biffo....

[Wing Chun Dummy]

My sparring is most of the time 80 - 90% anyway - but thats just me.

Well I won't be worried about getting attacked by you then if you're opponents are still happily sparring after u've given them you're 80 - 90%

My 100% is a finger in the eye - sparring is over in a second because the opponent is blind. You can't condition your weak spots nomatter how hard u try. Training all the bruises is not realistically gonna help you much. Techniques worth training don't need to be hurtful to your training partners.

[Kapten Klutz]

You know there is some merit also in training when you feel sore or tired or just not 'in the mood',

Definitely. I always go to the scheduled trainings regardless of how I feel except for two times directly after I broke a rib. I don't see it as an option, 'should I go train or not?'. It's not up to moods, it's about comittment. I also train extra with a friend about once a week.

Don't get me wrong, I like the 'almost sparring' training that I've done with a friend and we're working towards sparring for real, though it won't be 100%. It's been a very humbling experience, and I want to keep at it because I realized how many hard lessens there are to learn. I just want to keep the injuries to a minimum, esp since I'm a bit on the old side.

[Kapten Klutz]

My 100% is a finger in the eye - sparring is over in a second because the opponent is blind.

There are some tactical/moral considerations involved. I practice eye strikes, not to hurt my training partner of course, but in case I ever need them.

However I see eye strikes as a desperation measure for an asymmetric situation.

If I am unfairly attacked by someone stronger, nastier or crazier than me, or are otherwise at a disadvantage and at risk of serious harm then I would strike at eyes and testicles.

However in a fair fight, those techniques just are not okay IMO. Training with a friendly partner it's of course out of the question. Doesn't mean you couldn't go 100% within these parameters.

If you have the advantage and are in control of your opponent (like cops or guards taking down a perp) then you can even consider using relatively gentle techniques like locks and throws. The right level of force depends on the situation.

I agree with those that say that some sparring is essential to get a feel for the pace and energy of a fight, even if you hold back the nastiest techniques you've practiced, or can't even Pak Sau because of the gloves. There are all kinds of lessons in trying to hit someone who's trying to hit you, regardless of whether it's strictly your style or not. If you don't practice this at least a little, you might find it harder than you think to even hit your opp's eye. Reminds me of one of murphy's laws of combat: if they're in range, so are you.

[Wing Chun Dummy]

well that was a reasonably agreeable post. there is the need to feel what the fight is like in a bit of pressuring sparring... so long as the sporty style doesn't rub off in a real fight.

[Liddel]

Well I won't be worried about getting attacked by you then if you're opponents are still happily sparring after u've given them you're 80 - 90% .

Well thats quite a big assumption Mr dummy.

My 100% is a finger in the eye - sparring is over in a second because the opponent is blind. You can't condition your weak spots nomatter how hard u try. Training all the bruises is not realistically gonna help you much. Techniques worth training don't need to be hurtful to your training partners.

A kick to the groin is a similar move (with relation to your eye jab) that should drop MOST MEN in a fight.
However if you actually put a reasonbly skilled fighter in a box (groin cover) and try to kick him full power while sparring you will find its not as EASY as you seem to think.

And just for arguments sake - UFC 57 - Frank mir got cut right above his eye - bled all over the show and couldnt see out of one eye - subsequently he DID loose the fight - BUT he wasnt out right away, he still fought on for a bit........

George St Piere (sp?) was poked in the eye when he fought BJ Pen and he still fought out another few rounds to WIN.

I only fight to SURVIVE, not to compete - if my life was at stake and i got a eye poked it would hurt and severely put me at a disadvantage but it would not FINISH ME....

Its funny because SPARRING would give you a good measure to distinguish between your attacks that are FINISH actions and just Harrasments.

Different strokes for different folks

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good points, Lidell...

Depending upon eye pokes and groin shots to win an encounter is not a good plan.

[Wing Chun Dummy]

i couldn't disagree more. i just made a long post to continue the argument and this website lost it in some problem so i wont repeat it all. basically though, you can't replicate the awareness of the real fight in competitive sparring. groin and eyes are the best targets. don't believe me? too bad

[couch]

i couldn't disagree more. i just made a long post to continue the argument and this website lost it in some problem so i wont repeat it all. basically though, you can't replicate the awareness of the real fight in competitive sparring. groin and eyes are the best targets. don't believe me? too bad

Just to add my little bit:

We've been down this road before. This argument, etc. Round and round we go!

You say that you can't replicate what happens in a real right with sparring. Agreed. but I ain't starting any fights anytime soon. Are you? Do you go out and start fights, put yourself out there with your life on the line to fight the "real" fight?

Sparring (light and hard) is that answer to the problem. So are the drills, the chi sau, the forms. All one complete package. Can't have WC without a little from all the categories, I believe.

Best,
Kenton