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Thread: How effective is Wing Chun?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawrenceofidaho
    This is a huge red flag.......
    So you're saying that choosing a school is based on whether they spar or not? You know nothing else and yet you are advising him to leave. I would call that a red flag.
    'Talk is cheap because there is an excess of supply over demand'

  2. #17
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    zooki I get doubts as to whether or not Wing Chun is truly effective.. i dunno, im still new to it..

    Muay Thai seems to be more accepted in the MMA community and has a fiersome rep.

    I guess i can do the conditioning at home.. but what about sparring?? My school is traditional one.. no sparring at all. Sifu says its not needed. He is student of Ip man.
    I like to ask you a question?do you think your sifu can fight? if he can't Fight then why are you there?If he can then maybe you should listen to him.I'm sure he knows alittle more then you do...
    http://www.facebook.com/sifumcilwrath
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    There is no REAL secrets in Wing Chun, but because the forms are conceptual you have to know how to decipher the information..That's the secret..

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69
    doyou think your sifu can fight? if he can't Fight then why are you there?
    A MUCH better question, IMO.
    'Talk is cheap because there is an excess of supply over demand'

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matrix
    So you're saying that choosing a school is based on whether they spar or not? You know nothing else and yet you are advising him to leave. I would call that a red flag.
    Bill,

    This topic started with a gentleman expressing an interest in learning fighting skills, -not following (what Ray described well on another thread) an "artist" program.

    http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=39499

    Why shouldn't someone be suspicious of a school (that is supposedly teaching you a skill) discouraging you from ever testing your performance in that skill?

    -Lawrence
    I don't think Wing Chun is so limited that I can't do it when I wrestle, box, kickbox, or fight by MMA rules, nor am I so limited a student that I can't improve by training in each of those forums. -Andrew S

    A good instructor encourages his students to question things, think for themselves and determine their own solutions to problems. They give advice, rather than acting as a vehicle for the transmission of dogma.
    -Andrew Nerlich

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawrenceofidaho
    This topic started with a gentleman expressing an interest in learning fighting skills, -not following (what Ray described well on another thread) an "artist" program.
    Understood, but I stand by my comments never the less.
    Quote Originally Posted by lawrenceofidaho
    Why shouldn't someone be suspicious of a school (that is supposedly teaching you a skill) discouraging you from ever testing your performance in that skill?
    Suspicious? That may mean that you should look deeper as any good student would do. There are more questions to ask before you bolt for the door. Something brought him there in the first place. If things have changed that much then so be it. I'm just saying that there's more to it than one factor.
    Last edited by Matrix; 12-25-2005 at 11:59 AM.
    'Talk is cheap because there is an excess of supply over demand'

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69
    do you think your sifu can fight? if he can't Fight then why are you there?If he can then maybe you should listen to him.I'm sure he knows alittle more then you do...
    The problem is, -how will he find out?

    If you asked the sifu if he can fight, he might tell you a story or two, but that's not going to help much in really finding out what kind of skills he possesses, and it's doubtful he has medals or footage from full-contact kung fu invitationals that he's participated in if he's a "no sparring" guy.

    So where does that leave him if he desires an answer to that question? -Maybe he could look to see if the sifu is producing fighters out of his school? (How would a guy at his kwoon stack up against a guy of equal experience from the Muay Thai gym up the street?) Problem again. -If sifu says; "No sparring." we'll never see his guys in action to be able to judge their skills either.......



    -L
    I don't think Wing Chun is so limited that I can't do it when I wrestle, box, kickbox, or fight by MMA rules, nor am I so limited a student that I can't improve by training in each of those forums. -Andrew S

    A good instructor encourages his students to question things, think for themselves and determine their own solutions to problems. They give advice, rather than acting as a vehicle for the transmission of dogma.
    -Andrew Nerlich

  7. #22
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    I would never join a school if I thought a sifu could not fight.Simple test him or a senior out.If they refuse I would head for the door.Th esifu I'm with now.When I went to see him I told him I did not think he could teach me anything by looking at his students,so he simple said attack me!! so I did,and I found out fast this man had something I needed to learn.that was 3 years ago.
    Last edited by stonecrusher69; 12-25-2005 at 12:26 PM.
    http://www.facebook.com/sifumcilwrath
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    There is no REAL secrets in Wing Chun, but because the forms are conceptual you have to know how to decipher the information..That's the secret..

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69
    I would never join a school if I thought a sifu could not fight.Simple test him or a senior out.If they refuse I would head for the door.Th esifu I'm with now.When I went to see him I told him I did not think he could teach me anything by looking at his students,so he simple said attack me!! so I did,and I found out fast this man had something I needed to learn.that was 3 years ago.
    I think you've brought up good points, but maybe the prospective student doesn't have any previous training like you did when you walked into your current school....... An untrained person might be impressed by the sifu demonstrating completely unrealistic techniques.

    -Lawrence
    I don't think Wing Chun is so limited that I can't do it when I wrestle, box, kickbox, or fight by MMA rules, nor am I so limited a student that I can't improve by training in each of those forums. -Andrew S

    A good instructor encourages his students to question things, think for themselves and determine their own solutions to problems. They give advice, rather than acting as a vehicle for the transmission of dogma.
    -Andrew Nerlich

  9. #24
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    lawrenceofidaho.....I agree 100% what you said.The best thing would be for him to bring a friend who has experience and get feed back from him if possible.If you can't do that then you will have to educate your self as best you can about WCK(read books etc) and ask good questions and ask the sifu to demonstrate.One is he should be able to do what he talks about,so if he says I can knock someone back 10 feet with a single punch ask hi do do it on you.Aslo even if you can't fight at least you can get some idea about his skill if you attack him.If he has a hard time with you then you simply leave you've seen enogh.A good teacher should be miles ahead of you.This is a tuff spot to be in when you have no experience. I went throught that myself.I joined a few crappy schools way back but that is how you learn.
    http://www.facebook.com/sifumcilwrath
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    There is no REAL secrets in Wing Chun, but because the forms are conceptual you have to know how to decipher the information..That's the secret..

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostofwingchun
    ไRui_Jingδ I can only respond to some of your questions . . . I am thinking wc is not for everyone just like nothing is for everyone . . . your martial art should play to your natural strengths . . . but it takes time and experience to find those natural strengths . . . just like how do you know what sports you are good at? If you want to know how wc can be used go find good wc group that fights . . . they will show you and you will see for yourself . . . seeing with own eyes is always best evidence. You may look at recent thread about Alan Orr group winning NHB fights . . . this sounds like group that fights with wc . . . and there are others . . . but must search for them. If worried about defense for street it is much easier to carry weapon.

    Thanks,

    Ghost
    Ghost,
    I have to whole heartedly disagree with your assessment that WC is NOT for everyone. IMO it is for everyone, tall/short/big or small. Yes, everyone will express it differently based on their own individuality, but the core of the system is based on efficiency and effectiveness (movements that require less effort to perform and they work). WC transcends limitations that the individual brings to the table. Most people I know have some sort of physical problem with them (bad backs, neck, knees, etc...), and they still perform well in the art. If you can still perform well in the art, regardless of your disabilities, then all you have to do is learn to read your opponent, what is his set up and interrupt it. This applies to all MA applications but not all of them have the ability to do this effectively or without injury or damage on the way in to the person using it (take one to give one mentality).

    Concerning the sparring thing, well you have to eventually test what you have learned. The intensity & randomness of the attacks you are practicing against have to increase incrementally as you progress thru the system. If all you do is forms, dummy and chi-sao, you will have no idea of what to do outside of the non contact range. Entry, positioning with your opponent, reading his intentions, gauging distance and structure are all important concepts to learn and apply when wanting effective combat skills, never mind having the ability to use your own tools well, with speed and stopping power.



    James

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawrenceofidaho
    I think you've brought up good points, but maybe the prospective student doesn't have any previous training like you did when you walked into your current school....... An untrained person might be impressed by the sifu demonstrating completely unrealistic techniques.
    Just to be devil's advocate, that same person could just as easily be impressed by a club where everybody spars but does not do so with any real skill.
    'Talk is cheap because there is an excess of supply over demand'

  12. #27
    Hi thank you guys ...

    Stone Crusher, nice reply, I think he is a good fighter! lol. I dont think im at the stage where i can challenge MA Instructors..

    I guess i feel weary because of the way the class is held.. its a traditional Wing Chun School, different to everything i have done before.

    I did do martial arts before, and they were pretty "Hard" MA where strength was valued, there was a JKD guy who loved showing off his stab wounds.. lol.. He would literally go around throwing people on to their backs on the hard ground... Ok.. I left them behind ages ago!! I did enjoy doing Silat and Kali with a MAlaysian student in university, which i enjoyed a lot but he had to leave back to Malaysia.

    Perhaps i need time to get in the wingchun mindset where brute force isnt exactly what is needed.


    Apart from my "beginner's doubts" regarding Wing Chun, I like the Instructor and Class in general as they appear to be polite and humble, and talk with good knowledge, unlike some people i have trained with in the past.
    Last edited by zooki; 12-25-2005 at 07:28 PM.

  13. #28
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    Some people don't like traditional training and some do.I perfer traditional training my self.give your new school a change and if your sifu is good you will see the treasure of WCK unfold.With traditional training it's not all about fighting there is much more you can get out of it if you want it.There is the health/healing side and the spirtual side of the training as well.With other arts which might be great for fighting sometimes they lack the spirtual side.There mind set is kill kill kill.When your 60's do you still want this mindset or do you want something more out of your art....

    Good luck with your training..
    http://www.facebook.com/sifumcilwrath
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    There is no REAL secrets in Wing Chun, but because the forms are conceptual you have to know how to decipher the information..That's the secret..

  14. #29
    The answer really depends on how you measure.

    First the best martial art is the one that you best understand.

    Next Wing Chun is the best there is!

    Wing chun is a joke!

    I train twice a week and beat up the drunk jerk bully in a bar. Yeah its the best!

    I train twice a week and a thai boxer kicked my butt. Wing Chun is a waste!

    I only train wing chun. Its the best! If you havnt expierenced anything else how would you know?

    I trained several arts until I found wing chun and its the best I found for me!

    Whats your standard. Want to beat ken SHamrock? no problem train like Ken.

    Part time Sifu cant beat Ken. Does that mean Wing Chun is no good?

    Question can only be answered based on your goal and standard.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69
    zooki I get doubts as to whether or not Wing Chun is truly effective.. i dunno, im still new to it..

    Muay Thai seems to be more accepted in the MMA community and has a fiersome rep.

    I guess i can do the conditioning at home.. but what about sparring?? My school is traditional one.. no sparring at all. Sifu says its not needed. He is student of Ip man.
    I like to ask you a question?do you think your sifu can fight? if he can't Fight then why are you there?If he can then maybe you should listen to him.I'm sure he knows alittle more then you do...
    If you're in or near South Jersey try here:
    Sifu Keith Mazza : 3747 Church Road, Mount Laurel, NJ, 08054 : 856-231-0352
    Phil
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
    sifupr

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