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Thread: How effective is Wing Chun?

  1. #31
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    Phill was that post directed for me or zooki?
    http://www.facebook.com/sifumcilwrath
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    There is no REAL secrets in Wing Chun, but because the forms are conceptual you have to know how to decipher the information..That's the secret..

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Fong
    The answer really depends on how you measure.

    First the best martial art is the one that you best understand.

    Next Wing Chun is the best there is!

    Wing chun is a joke!

    I train twice a week and beat up the drunk jerk bully in a bar. Yeah its the best!

    I train twice a week and a thai boxer kicked my butt. Wing Chun is a waste!

    I only train wing chun. Its the best! If you havnt expierenced anything else how would you know?

    I trained several arts until I found wing chun and its the best I found for me!

    Whats your standard. Want to beat ken SHamrock? no problem train like Ken.

    Part time Sifu cant beat Ken. Does that mean Wing Chun is no good?

    Question can only be answered based on your goal and standard.
    This discussion I am thinking seems to revolve around two things . . . Mr. Fong I am thinking you have gotten to crux of matter of one . . . it comes down to how you measure . . . or how you test . . . or to put another way . . . how you define ability . . . Socrates say beginning of wisdom is in our definitions . . . and this I am thinking is why so often people talk past each other . . . they use same expression but define it differently . . . and thus test it differently . . . second thing I am thinking is that many come to art with expectations . . . or preconceptions . . . or wishful thinking . . . rose colored glasses . . . and then fall in love with art . . . and only see what believe is beauty in art . . . not the warts . . . hey what is wrong with me to say wc has warts! . . . lol . . .now combine these two things . . . and person can define fighting ability in such a way to only expose beauty and not warts . . . effectiveness is using straight line . . . why . . . because I define it so . . . straight line has less movement and is beautiful . . . wc punch is effective . . . why . . . because I define it so . . . and so on . . . now if I define effective as works against opponent in NHB fight things change . . . but I don't like that definition since it expose warts! . . . lol . . . rose colored glass tells me wc is better martial art that other things . . . so it must be so . . . if someone tell me wc like any other martial art I get upset since you talk about warts . . . I am thinking that until we all have same definitions it will be difficult to discuss things . . . also difficult for people without rose colored glasses to discuss with those that do . . . so I am thinking until barriers are removed communication will always be tense. This is my thinking at present . . . please criticize my views. . . I want to see my warts!

    Thanks,

    Ghost

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghostofwingchun
    This discussion I am thinking seems to revolve around two things . . . Mr. Fong I am thinking you have gotten to crux of matter of one . . . it comes down to how you measure . . . or how you test . . . or to put another way . . . how you define ability . . . Socrates say beginning of wisdom is in our definitions . . . and this I am thinking is why so often people talk past each other . . . they use same expression but define it differently . . . and thus test it differently . . . second thing I am thinking is that many come to art with expectations . . . or preconceptions . . . or wishful thinking . . . rose colored glasses . . . and then fall in love with art . . . and only see what believe is beauty in art . . . not the warts . . . hey what is wrong with me to say wc has warts! . . . lol . . .now combine these two things . . . and person can define fighting ability in such a way to only expose beauty and not warts . . . effectiveness is using straight line . . . why . . . because I define it so . . . straight line has less movement and is beautiful . . . wc punch is effective . . . why . . . because I define it so . . . and so on . . . now if I define effective as works against opponent in NHB fight things change . . . but I don't like that definition since it expose warts! . . . lol . . . rose colored glass tells me wc is better martial art that other things . . . so it must be so . . . if someone tell me wc like any other martial art I get upset since you talk about warts . . . I am thinking that until we all have same definitions it will be difficult to discuss things . . . also difficult for people without rose colored glasses to discuss with those that do . . . so I am thinking until barriers are removed communication will always be tense. This is my thinking at present . . . please criticize my views. . . I want to see my warts!

    Thanks,

    Ghost
    Yes, the way we test, look at the art bla bla bla is different. The way we learn the art is different and what are instructor's taught us is different. Most importantly I think is the fact that we are all not doing the samethings (Tan sau's are different, positioning's are different, strategy and concepts are different). I know that my WC is differnent from lots of people are here and so forth. This fact doesn't help matters either when discussing things because are we really talking about the same things? Where one person's WC system is strong in one area, it may be weak in someone else's WC.

    Concerning the Rose Colored Glasses, this may be so in the beginning but after examination and being truthful with yourself and what you are doing, this attitude 'should' fade away. I think in today's MA world there will be less and less of this as people are always looking for proof, something they can see that confirms what they are hearing.

    Barriers arise because some people get personal. The way I found this forum was through Victor's negative comments about my Sifu, a year and half ago. I had to respond, and what was said was unacceptable to me. He basically made comments about my Sifu's ability, when in fact he had not seen him do anything(funny thing was that Victor's seniors had opposite opinions on that subject, as well as his teacher). On the contrary I saw him do lots(I was there to watch his Sifu level test and I have the test on video tape) and therefore have the right to comment on that. Again, try not to look at individuals but look at what they do, in terms of what does their WC teach them. All of the WC works and is effective, that is the base idea behind the system. But there is alot of variation out there and some systems are totally different from others, making it hard at times to discuss between us.

    James

  4. #34
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    Where is the context?

    This thread has some interesting questions being asked.

    The context of the original question was the effectiveness of wing chun in a combat situation where your opponent is a “street thug,” a “BBJ guy,” and a ‘martial artist who has studied something other than wing chun.’

    It is interesting to me how a few of you seem to have glossed over the question and immediately began to inject their perspectives on what the question should be.

    IMHO, it is not a “style” that is effective; rather it is the individual who is effective.

    Unless you are talking about summoning the spirit of Wing Chun and having her fight for you, then it is YOU that is going to put your life on the line, not wing chun.

    If you will indulge me for a moment and allow me to rephrase this question: “How effective is Jazz piano for improvisation?”

    If you are a musician who plays piano, studying jazz from a good teacher would be good exercise. Conversely, studying jazz from a poor teacher could cause some bad habits that could take years of re-training to correct.

    Simply because you study jazz piano doesn’t mean that you are going to be able to improvise well, or be a great jazz piano player, or be able to compose great music. THIS IS NOT (necessarily) THE FAULT OF JAZZ PIANO or YOUR TEACHER!

    No matter how hard some people try they will never be great painters, or musicians, or physicists. (Please let’s not get into a discussion now about what makes someone a great ________ (insert vocation/skill here))

    And what’s more, if you aren’t a great physicist but you love physics then enjoy and do what you love AS A HOBBY. However, if you are going to charge money teaching physics then perhaps you should truly asses your skills/knowledge/competency so as not to mislead students.

    My point is simply that I find all too often people that believe because someone has studied a certain “style” then they are the baddest of the bad! THIS IS COMPLETE NONSENSE! I have met individuals who haven’t studied fighting a day in their life but put them in a fight and watch out. Or for that matter someone who has practiced some street boxing or a high school wrestler.

    So please let’s stop talking about wing chun as if it is this objective style that somehow takes possession of someone during a combat situation and realize that it is the latent skill that a person possesses PLUS the time/energy/sweat/dedication that said student brings to the practice PLUS the context of the engagement, when and if it does happen, that will ultimately decide the outcome (and thus effectiveness) of the training.

    Also things largely depend on the evolution of the student at the time. Different learning models are better for different students at different times.

    Thank you,
    GFH

    P.S. Ghost, actually Socrates said that the beginning of wisdom was in the realization of our ignorance (and if you want to be specific it was not Socrates who said it, but Plato who wrote that Socrates said…so we kind of have to take his word for it).

  5. #35
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    Jingo

    I am very interested in the style because I have seen the fast handmovements used, but how effective would wing chun be against someone who has had other martial arts training. I know it's a stupid question because a smart martial arts practitioner would never have to prove himself and end up in a fight anyways.
    Your question is not stupid, but lacks clarity. Are you talking about art vs art or person of the art vs person of the art? We can find true masters in any martial art. Those who train at Olympic levels will perform at Olympic levels. An art vs another art is only on paper. The reality is within the combatants and their level of emotion, skill, and intent. You are impressed with the "fast" hand movements? They are not fast, but the results of studying timing and using efficient movements. Our style is often compared to other styles scientifically with reason. It is not better than other styles, but uses its nature and philosophy based on facts.


    I'm just curious though: How well would Wing Chun work against a street thug? I live in the city and my area constantly has people getting beat up and robbed. Would wing chun training be the best choice for street self defense? The only defense against a street thug is your ability to be aware and your courage. Wing Chun's true advantage would be time. It is fair to say that one studying Wing Chun is exposed to realistic applicable techniques than most other arts. Again, this is not the art. This is the person.


    And I know this has probably been discussed here before, but: How would a Wing Chun practitioner go about fighting against a BBJ guy. It seems they would just have to take you off your feet and you'd be finished. These big strong BJJ guys, how would you go about them? I'm not a huge guy with big muscles, thats why I find Wing Chun so interesting...But does it really work? Wing Chun, as mentioned, should be studied in general concepts with the eventual goal to transcend from Wing Chun to your own Kung Fu ("Jeet Kune Do"). This is your enlightenment as to what your purpose of training is. Two people at the same school and same family may not train the same. There should never be such ignorance to think that students come out the carbon copy of their Sifu. A true Sifu allows the student to express themselves. There will be some who are soft and those who are hard. Their strength as a school and family is the Yin/Yang balance of both.

    I do not agree with the statement that you should only learn from a Sifu who can fight. This brings in the concept that Martial Arts training is all about physical training and winning and losing. Learn from a Sifu who can allow you to develope what you need, not make you into something you might not be.

    Sparring? Well, this is something I believe a martial arts school owner or teacher should embrace. Again, this should be done in the context of some value. Sparring is an excellent teacher for some things and gives one an experience in a protected combat evironment. Can be good for those seeking that experience, and must be clear that reality fighting is only during that moment when it happens - one cannot simulate truthfully the life and death emotion you experience in a "real" street fight. However, if you play Kung Fu and treat fighting as a game (enjoyment), your chance for success may increase.

    Good luck in your Kung Fu
    Moy Yat Kung Fu - Martial Intelligence

  6. #36
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    correction

    "...It is fair to say that one studying Wing Chun is exposed to realistic applicable techniques than most other arts. Again, this is not the art. This is the person."

    I meant to say "...one studying Wing Chun is exposed EARLIER to realistic (USABLE) applicable techniques than most other arts.
    Moy Yat Kung Fu - Martial Intelligence

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69
    Phill was that post directed for me or zooki?
    My bad, I thought Zookie was from NJ. It was directed at him. I see that you are the one from Jersey. BTW I'll be in S. Jersey in Jan. If you'd like to meet let me know.
    Phil
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
    sifupr

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond
    My bad, I thought Zookie was from NJ. It was directed at him. I see that you are the one from Jersey. BTW I'll be in S. Jersey in Jan. If you'd like to meet let me know.
    Phil
    UK

    this is the school im plannin on joining

    http://www.wingchun.co.uk/index_1.htm

  9. #39
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    It looks like a good school.I would give it a try.How many options do you have?check out all the schools and them make a decission.
    http://www.facebook.com/sifumcilwrath
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    There is no REAL secrets in Wing Chun, but because the forms are conceptual you have to know how to decipher the information..That's the secret..

  10. #40
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    My bad, I thought Zookie was from NJ. It was directed at him. I see that you are the one from Jersey. BTW I'll be in S. Jersey in Jan. If you'd like to meet let me know.
    Phil

    sure maybe..are you going to be in Atlantic City in Jan for the MA masters expo?
    http://www.facebook.com/sifumcilwrath
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    There is no REAL secrets in Wing Chun, but because the forms are conceptual you have to know how to decipher the information..That's the secret..

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69
    sure maybe..are you going to be in Atlantic City in Jan for the MA masters expo?
    Yep, I'll be there with my WC brothers. I'm only going for one day though.
    Phil
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
    sifupr

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69
    It looks like a good school.I would give it a try.How many options do you have?check out all the schools and them make a decission.
    Hi, i think there is only one other Person who teaches Wing Chun in and around Birmingham and that is Sifu Abid Mahmud,

    But, his Associations Website kinda put me off.. it seems weird how his teacher, James Sinclair talks about his teachers Ego..

    http://www.ukwingchun.com/Master_James_Sinclair.htm

    maybe i will have a look at his class as well..

    Also, Sifu Shaun Rawcliffe seems to be much more close to Ip Man then these guys.

  13. #43
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    HTML Code:
         Phil Redmond Quote:
    Originally Posted by stonecrusher69
    sure maybe..are you going to be in Atlantic City in Jan for the MA masters expo? 
    
    Yep, I'll be there with my WC brothers. I'm only going for one day though.
    Phil


    Great..I'll be there also on saturday with my sifu..I'll look for you when I'll, there.
    http://www.facebook.com/sifumcilwrath
    http://www.youtube.com/user/sifumcilwrath



    There is no REAL secrets in Wing Chun, but because the forms are conceptual you have to know how to decipher the information..That's the secret..

  14. #44
    Hi
    ***I'm just curious though: How well would Wing Chun work against a street thug? I live in the city and my area constantly has people getting beat up and robbed. Would wing chun training be the best choice for street self defense?
    ---I believe Wing Chun can only be part of the answer when discussing defence against a street thug, but is only one element in the defensive/offense scenario. Same goes for BJJ and any number of other MA's. I would strongly recommend that you find a school that truly tests and develops your observational and fear management skills, and very importantly, puts you in as realistic poisitions (as is possible) so that you can monitor your reactions to stress. If you know little about your fear management all the skills training in the world will make little difference as stress chemicals course uncontrolled through your body.

    ***And I know this has probably been discussed here before, but: How would a Wing Chun practitioner go about fighting against a BBJ guy. It seems they would just have to take you off your feet and you'd be finished. These big strong BJJ guys, how would you go about them? I'm not a huge guy with big muscles, thats why I find Wing Chun so interesting...But does it really work?
    ---BJJ men have a fearsome reputation, and a big strong attacker, regardless of their MA training, can be dangerous. But no more dangerous than a small man with a weapon, or one that uses surprise etc etc. Read the book Andrew N. suggests and you may be better able to judge wheather a MA is able to supply you with the requisite emotional and physical skills to deal with an attacker.

    Andrew W.

  15. #45
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    I would say there's no martial art more practical for empty handed combat than wing chun.

    By the way, I just noticed:

    Phil Redmond; SEMPER FIDELIS; Join Date: Jan 1970
    now that's what I call a faithful member

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