Anti-Manchu creation stories

[canglong]

Chee,
That cleared up a few points for me, thanks. Before we address the points of your last post lets first see what we understand as far as what ghost had to say earlier.

originally posted by ghostofwingchun
I am wondering why anyone wishing to train army or revolutionaries would be concerned with hand to hand fighting in the first place . . . wars and revolutions are fought with weapons not with hands . . . or why bow and arrow not part of martial art . . . certainly major weapon of war . . . but I guess it makes for good stories.

This is an excellent point because Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun history record that weapons were traditionally trained first.

[CFT]

Tony,

All this is just "idle" speculation on my part. It's just that my interest was piqued the other day by someone who had posted about CLF being design to train anti-Manchu revolutionaries. My first thought was: "What! CLF as well"? Then it got me to think about Chu/Chow Gar Praying Mantis, etc.

So does CSWCK and HFYWCK still train the weapons first or empty-hands?

[canglong]

What! CLF as well"?

aaaahh, got cha now you prankster Chee.
You need to see it as cracking the code or piecing together the puzzle so its not so draining on you. Enjoy the stories while researching the facts there are quite a few knowledgable people here take advantage ot that.

So does CSWCK and HFYWCK still train the weapons first or empty-hands?

Chee,
Well I can only speak to the history of Chi Sim as far as them training the traditional way today no doubt Grandmaster Hoffmann's knowledge is such that he could whether he does or not we would need to ask him.

As for Hung Fa Yi like Chi Sim Weng Chun it is a Philosophy a Science and a Physical martial endeavor of the 2 as well. Our Grandmaster's knowledge of the system is such he can teach an individual starting anywhere in the system based on the individuals ability to learn or apply what it is he is being taught. We have so many private students and disciples being taught in a Hou Chyun San Sau setting it would be impossible for me to know if any one of them was training in the traditional manner. Generally speaking though in our public classes we are not being taught weapons training per say each individual weapon, however; we do learn principles of weapons as they apply to hand-to-hand combat from the very beginning of our training because a majority of those principles are derived from weapon applications.

[ghostofwingchun]

Chee,
That cleared up a few points for me, thanks. Before we address the points of your last post lets first see what we understand as far as what ghost had to say earlier. This is an excellent point because Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun history record that weapons were traditionally trained first.

Mr. Jacobs . . . what weapons are these . . . butterfly swords and pole like rest of wc . . . or are there other weapons? I ask because neither pole or butterfly swords are weapons typically used in war . . . even in ancient times . . . weapons in ancient war were bow and arrrow, spear, sword and shield, and so on. I am thinkng that martial art for soldier would include these weapons.

Thanks,

Ghost

[reneritchie]

In the time and place of WCK, rebellion raged in the form of God's Chinese Son, Hong Xiuquan, who proclaimed the Taiping and began a movement that would end in over 20 Million deaths.

Think about that number.

In the time and place of WCK, the Red Junk Opera, under the leadership of Li Wenmao, rose up behind Chen Kai in support of the Taiping, and marched in Foshan in what would become the Red Turban Rebellion and the proclamation of teh Daning.

This was a fading time for martial arts, where Britain had forced open ports and the concession of Hong Kong under threat of armored steamers, cannons, and guns the likes of which were seldom seen before.

The Taiping forged their own armada of boats and claimed river power, armed themselves with bombs and guns, and drove through the south and seized Nanjing itself during their height.

Local militia, wealthy gentry, and even the townspeople of Foshan fought the rebels in the end. There were Manchu, no doubt, but the world was far more gray by then, and allegiences shifted and stories bubbled up as part of the wars, even as they still do today.

Scholars have recorded that the spectacular flips and acrobatics of the Red Junk let them fight the Qing. I don't know how many flips and acrobatics are in standard WCK, but we do know WCK was historically on the Red Junks at the time.

[Hendrik]

My old post...

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ht=lee+man+mau

[Phil Redmond]

I am wondering why anyone wishing to train army or revolutionaries would be concerned with hand to hand fighting in the first place . . . wars and revolutions are fought with weapons not with hands . . . or why bow and arrow not part of martial art . . . certainly major weapon of war . . . but I guess it makes for good stories.

Ghost

Not quite true. All Armies trained in hand-to-hand combat. I know I did in the Corps. In fact, the U.S. Marine Corps has a martial art with a belt ranking system now.
PR

[canglong]

Ghost,
At least the knives and the spear yes the pole is the spear with the tip removed because it was not allowed in the temple.

[reneritchie]

When I was in Guangzhou, the army was entertaining the idea of training in TKD and some of the local WCK people thought the idea of belts and all was a better commercial model if they had to compete....

[ghostofwingchun]

Ghost,
At least the knives and the spear yes the pole is the spear with the tip removed because it was not allowed in the temple.

Mr. Jacobs are you saying that wc pole is spear with tip removed? This is what I don't understand . . . if wc pole come from shaolin temple then what is spear doing there in first place? Why also would it be ok for buddhist monk to strike with pole and not with spear . . . blunt object can kill too? I am thinking that technical element of spear would not be the same as pole . . . just as technical elements of stick is not the same as sword . . . perhaps some overlap . . . dog brothers do not look like fencing! . . . but different qualities of weapons I am thinking would change how they are used.

Thanks,

Ghost

[anerlich]

blunt object can kill too

Indeed, William Cheung inherited a pole which allegedly was used to kill 6 people in combat.

Jeez, lots of things can kill.

One of my training buds showed me a newspaper clipping the other day where a 47 year old karate BB instructor in New Zealand (I think) collapsed and died of a heart attack while sparring with a ten year old girl who he was encouraging to "hit me harder" during a grading. The girl was understandably upset and is undergoing counselling.

I'm 51, going to stay the heck away from kid's classes

[reneritchie]

People have suffered 'Sudden Death' after being hit by baseballs...

[kj]

One of my training buds showed me a newspaper clipping the other day where a 47 year old karate BB instructor in New Zealand (I think) collapsed and died of a heart attack while sparring with a ten year old girl who he was encouraging to "hit me harder" during a grading. The girl was understandably upset and is undergoing counselling.

I'm betting this is the same one: Black belt dies in bout with girl, 10

Regards,
- kj

[anerlich]

Yep, that's the one. Pretty sad, and perhaps disturbing for everyone involved.