Controversial Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan

[JamesC]

So I asked my sifu last night what style of Tai Chi he taught and he told me that he teaches Yang style.

He teaches first, the Chen Man Ching version of Yang, which is one of the most common correct?

He then told me that he teaches one that is considered controversial. It is also a Yang style. I can't remember the name of it though, it was very very long. He said the entire form is split into three parts. The first is 10 minutes, the second is 20 minutes, and the third is 30 minutes. So when put together, it takes an hour to perform.

He said that he likes it, and i'm trying to get some info on it so I can decide whether or not I want to try it.

[chud]

So I asked my sifu last night what style of Tai Chi he taught and he told me that he teaches Yang style.

He teaches first, the Chen Man Ching version of Yang, which is one of the most common correct?

He then told me that he teaches one that is considered controversial. It is also a Yang style. I can't remember the name of it though, it was very very long. He said the entire form is split into three parts. The first is 10 minutes, the second is 20 minutes, and the third is 30 minutes. So when put together, it takes an hour to perform.

He said that he likes it, and i'm trying to get some info on it so I can decide whether or not I want to try it.

Sounds like Yang 108, but I don't know what would be controversial about that.
See if you can find out the name and post it.
Btw, who's your Sifu?

[JamesC]

His name is Terry Wisniewksi.

I'll try to find out next Thursday what the name is.

[Kaitain(UK)]

it might be the contentious "OLD" Yang form. Of which there are many and all seem to be predicated on some sort of one-upmanship - "my style is oldest/purest/realist/most legitimate"

If it's good and you like it, who gives what it's called

[Repulsive Monkey]

This is the problem with Old Yang Long form. The fact that he says controversial almost has a whiff of the old Mr Montague.
That would be contoversial as he seems to one of those people that just doesn't quite sit well with most.

If he got it from say Yang Sau chueng or Tian Shao Lin I would of applauded him.

[chud]

anyone else doing a form similar to this? Our lineage is Master Ham King Koo who sudied with a guy by the name of Yang Zi Teng

Well I am studying an older Yang form that is from Yang Shaohou's lineage, not from the more popular Yang Chengfu lineage. Yang Shaohou (who was quite the bad ass apparently) was Yang Chengfu's older brother. We also have a second form that is fast frame; I hadn't thought of it until now but I guess that is "controversial" in some people's eyes. I know that I encountered a Chen style guy on another forum who was getting all upset and saying that he didn't believe the second fast frame form even existed because he couldn't find video of it on the internet (as if things don't exist if they're not posted online).

[hung-le]

A very hot topic indeed!



There are a few controversial Yang “old Frame style” that I know of. but being controiversial doesn't mean much. One is Erle Montegue’s . His linage is questionable at best and his “old frame style possesses few elements of the eight jing and five stepping used in most of the (proven authentic) styles of Taijiquan. His “old frame style appears strike originated with his Dimak applications. Basically, I think he is somewhat self-taught and throughout his 30+ years of studying Taijiquan he’s actually found what’s worked for him through trial and error and hard work) but he’s based IMO most of his knowledge off of Taijiquan on something other than Taijiquan… I say this because early on in the Internet he was using Wing Chun terminology to describe much of what he was doing. I once saw him doing something called San Sau where he was basically mimicking Wing Chun stances and principles, substituting Quasi Yang style postures into it etc….

However! From what I’ve seen, it appears to have substance His dimak isn’t as far fetched as one would believe and added to this is the fact most of his followers/disciples actually practice in a martial sense. A fact very important in my book. If we look at the disciples Yang Zhen Duo, there is a vast difference in quality! I trained for 12 years under a major disciple of Yang Zhen Dou and personally I would take one of Erle’s students into a fight as a back up before I would take my ex teacher! I think Montigue has basically created a sub school of Taijiquan that has real substance…he just needs to claim credit for his hard work!


I would also question anyone who claimed to come from Yang Ban Hou’s linage. I haven’t come across any legit evidence of Ban Hou having a successor. (I don’t think his son Zhao Peng taught in public …did he?) Ban Hou didn’t leave anyone to carry on his works unless you count Shou Hou and Chen fu. . (I assume if he did it would look like Wu style…I presume this because he’s the one who taught Wu Quan You…So maybe we can say the Ban Hou’s style is actually Wu style? His brother Jian Hou did teach publicly and had many students…but the school has always been very small. (For those interested, there is a VCD of someone who claims to come down from Jian Hou linage…. it probably looks like Yang Funeipai or “Yang inside court style” which from what I see is a cross mix of Yang style and Wu style….it makes sense and authenticated inside court style in my book, because it was created near the same time Ban Hou was teaching Wu Quan You) Again Jian Hou (Lu Chan’s youngest son) did have a few sons who taught the art, Shao Hou and of course the famous Chen fu. I can’t imagine Shao Hou’s style being that much different from Chen Fu’s (posture wise….) because Ban Hou their uncle and their dad “Jian Hou” taught them both. (Yes, later in life Chen fu decided to get serious after his dad died, but I have to believe both brothers Ban Hou and Jian Hou practice a similar art.

My point to all this is I personally doubt the authenticity of a Yang “old style” if it doesn’t look like and have the same elements of Yang “family” and parts of Wu style….

I’m not saying that if an art doesn’t possesses those elements it not worthy. Quite the opposite, as my opinion about Montique’s Taijiquan has shown. Some of the hybrid Yang styles and PRC styles are very good also. Many learned Yang or Wu style and combined other elements from different arts… Depends on the teacher and the student mostly……and not linage as to what is quality!

[hung-le]

Very cool.

I have some knowledge of Wu style. ( i.e. I have a friend who was a disciple of someone who trained with the Wu family out of Toronto) In reality the Wu style is a small circle fighting form. I’ve been told they have a large frame form that is rarely seen.

Tung style…ah…..really nice….and in my opinion it is hear where the martial baton of Yang Chen fu’s legacy rests. Some could argue Fu Zhongwen linage but honestly I don’t see it.

I got a tape of one of a Tung family member doing the long form and he’s got thighs that a pro running back in the NFL would be envious of. They have a proud history of maintaining the martial aspects of Yang style having participated in many bouts against Thai boxers while in Thailand.

[JamesC]

Wow, thanks for the info guys.

I didn't get to meet up with him last Thursday because I had strepp,but this Thursday is a go. I'll ask him then.

[chud]

I can’t imagine Shao Hou’s style being that much different from Chen Fu’s (posture wise….) because Ban Hou their uncle and their dad “Jian Hou” taught them both. (Yes, later in life Chen fu decided to get serious after his dad died, but I have to believe both brothers Ban Hou and Jian Hou practice a similar art.

You are correct that Yang Chengfu didn't get serious until after his dad died; Chengfu even admitted as much in the intro to his classic book "The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan", so this fact seems beyond debate. But think about it, if he didn't take his studies seriously when his father was alive (as he admitted), doesn't it seem likely that he would have left out a few moves that he couldn't remember well after the death of his father and older brothers? It would have been difficult to "lose face" and ask for refresher courses on the old Yang style, especially after finding oneself in the position of being the eldest surviving male and thus Grandmaster of the Yang Style. So it would seem that Yang Chengfu would have had good reason to teach a modified form. I mean no disrespect, Yang Chengfu definitely had incredible skills that would make most modern day practitioners look like amateurs by comparison, but as good as he was he must have been slightly less skilled than his father "Yang the Invincible" and his elder brothers (such as Yang Shaohou) who took their father's instruction more seriously during their lifetimes.

[hung-le]

unfortunately the only video of Tung himself doing the fast form is just a few seconds before the Chan Hak Fu/Wu style guy (never remember his name) "fight" in Macao in '54 (quotes because i can't think of any other word, except maybe farce, or perhaps debacle - but I digress...); anyway, he's doing the Dragon Strolling move, or his version of Wild Horse - he looks very happy when doing this;

the Tung form is very interesting - a lot of power exchanges going on - a variety of hard/fast and soft /slow - I've been "researching" it for a short while now - how to use the shapes to generate dfifferent power - the way the form breaks down into sections where different energies are "examined" - very interesting (like the opeing is a lot of pang ging; second section more splitting stuff, etc.) my teacher's teacher recommended doing it only once per day because too much would be potentially damaging if done incorectly...

also, Tung had a rather extensive background in some other style(s) - i forget what - hsing yi maybe? anyway, it's obvious he had other influences;

I swore I saw one of the Tung's doing thier fast form on the internent. I think it was on a stage. Small circle stuff...and explosive fa-jin. Moves in one direction then does a 180 and goes back the way he came. But I can't remember were I've seen it. Maybe it on the video that I have. Pretty cool stuff none the less.

[hung-le]

You are correct that Yang Chengfu didn't get serious until after his dad died; Chengfu even admitted as much in the intro to his classic book "The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan", so this fact seems beyond debate. But think about it, if he didn't take his studies seriously when his father was alive (as he admitted), doesn't it seem likely that he would have left out a few moves that he couldn't remember well after the death of his father and older brothers? It would have been difficult to "lose face" and ask for refresher courses on the old Yang style, especially after finding oneself in the position of being the eldest surviving male and thus Grandmaster of the Yang Style. So it would seem that Yang Chengfu would have had good reason to teach a modified form. I mean no disrespect, Yang Chengfu definitely had incredible skills that would make most modern day practitioners look like amateurs by comparison, but as good as he was he must have been slightly less skilled than his father "Yang the Invincible" and his elder brothers (such as Yang Shaohou) who took their father's instruction more seriously during their lifetimes.

James C "A small correction" Cheng fu's father was Yang (the invincible) Lu Chan's second son i.e. "Jian Hou" Yang Lu Chan was dead by about 12 years when Cheng fu was born. His uncle Ban Hou died when he was ten yet his dad died when he was 34 years old. He was probably trained by his dad and Ban hou's son, Zhao Peng, who was about ten years older. ( facts that might only add to your hypothesis. )


One wonders what Yang lu Chan practiced. If we look at the current state of Yang "family style" Taijiquan in a martial context, there is a serious void. Maybe he did forget much, maybe he didn't.

That said, I’m not sure that the form Chen fu brought to the world is that much different than what his grandfather was doing. A Wu style disciple and I once compared forms with a fine toothcomb. We found many similarities in postures, application, intent and training. Basically both styles have more things in common than they have different.

Can we assume that the Wu form was basically Yang Ban Hou’s small frame form? If the answer is yes, then I ask, “Could the form be that far off from what his dad “Yang Lu Chan the invincible’ was doing?” I would have to assume that the son wouldn’t depart that far from his famous father style. In my opinion, Logic dictates that line of thinking.

If we also look at the other Wu style or Hao style Taijiquan. Created by Wu Yu Xiang who trained with Yang Lu Chan and then went back to train with Chen family …i.e. trained with Chen Jing Ping (who I think trained Yang Lu Chan himself ) Both the “Chen Fu or “Yang family style” form and the Hou style are very very close in postures and techniques….and both of course are close to the Wu style.

One can see the lateral patterns of progression.

As you can Judge from my above commentary, I think there have been changes to the long form but nothing drastic. I also think what Chen Fu taught, was probably at the core of the Yang system. What the system was? What was taken out? What forms are no longer taught (as in fast forms, small frame forms, etc…etc…) who can say….

[YongChun]

Very cool.


I got a tape of one of a Tung family member doing the long form and he’s got thighs that a pro running back in the NFL would be envious of. They have a proud history of maintaining the martial aspects of Yang style having participated in many bouts against Thai boxers while in Thailand.

Is there any information on these Tai Chi vs Thai boxing matches somewhere?

Thank you.
Ray

[JamesC]

Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan.

aytma.org

[anarcapeack]

Hi, I will want to know wath do You think about a Yang Taijiquan 108 shi show by Chang Dsu Yao at:
http://www.pv.infn.it/~barnaba/KungFuChang/TiILu.html
This is the first part of the taolu.
Thanks