Late Grand Master Wei & Present Grand Master Shyun

[ChaoticMantis]

EarthD,

To be netural about it, I would recommend if you look to Master Su in NYC for further 8 Step instruction. I think he is the nearest teacher who can teach you the Zhai Yao. According to Master Sun, he knows all the 8 Step forms except for the low mantis form.

Old8Step,

Let's encourage EarthDragon to move on and not continue to reflect on his bad experiences. I think it would be both beneficial for him and this forum.

[lulusweeps]

What is the low Mantis Form?

[ChaoticMantis]

It is the same as ground mantis.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=39186

[EarthDragon]

Chaotic,
no worries i will try not to dwell on the negitive as i know it bothers you. But yes I have considered taking some trips to NYC but unfortunatly due to work and family I cannot possibly take the proper amount of time to train and learn all over again.

Old8step,
you bring up some very good questions and I wil try my best to answer them. you said
have you ever taken lessons from anyone else, if so did they show you something different? what was the difference I am very curious to know.

I hold a BB in Go Jyu Ryu karate before I ever got into mantis. But if you are speaking soley of 8 step then yes I have been shown, taught and posess video's of another master perfroming 8 step that looks quite diffrerent. Alos form corosponding with others some things that are taught early in ones learning was never shown or taught even up to shru level.

Also is it your belief that Shyun just added to 8 step or where did his 8 step come from if not grand master wei as i remember you posting that none of wei's student's remember shyun. So where does his eight step come from in your opinion?

there are o many things in shyuns ciriculum that other 8 step players have never heard of like the kicking combinations, the 10 body cordinations, the lead in's for the 40 throws. the mantis kick boxing, many fo the joint locks, etc etc. as to where this stuff came from I have no idea and have been trying to discet where and when and for what reason it was added. What was wrong with 8 step in his opinon? why would one add to it unless of course you never had the whole system in the first place.

Also and I know this may seem like a tough question but since you question the validity of the 8 step you have learned what do you tell your student's do you let them know that you may be teaching a system that is not the true 8 step? Do you inform them that you were taught from someone who is in your own words a "liar"

The 8 step that i know still works well in actual combat and the techniques are extremly effective and i am able to fight and defend with them. So yes it works, i guess i am just being a tradtionalist and would like the pure thing. water is drinkable and quenches your thrist but I would rather dring from the natural spring. does that make sense? yes my students are all over this board most of them have met Shyun when he would travel to my school to give demos and seminars. But many were turned off when I was told to send a check for 25,000 to him and that i must enroll 5 of my students in the sifu program in order to continue teaching 8 step.
When i refused my name was taken off the website and I was treated like I never was certified, learned not ranked not recognized or taught by him. that was a kick in the booty do you not agree? If others feel i am bitter i am sorry but how would you feel???????????/

I hope this answers some of your questions. be well

[Ou Ji]

It seems to me that what upsets you is probably that your MA life did not go the way you planned. Unfortunately that's how it goes for many of us.

For the most part you should be thankful for getting what you did (talking about MA's in general, not just you) and make the best of it.

Personally I don't get worked up about lineage. I would like to have learned a complete system and carried on the tradition but that didn't work out for me so I do what I can with what I learned.

I think this focus on complete systems and lineage is a modern thing. Systems evolve over the generations, they branch off, so I don't think there really is such a thing as complete.

I don't mean to say you're wrong for wanting that but I think you should be flexible enough to roll with the punches and come out on top. You can easily add in the things you feel were missing plus you have the extra stuff that others don't. Think of it as trading material.

Other than that being lied to trying to turn you into an ATM would **** anyone off but that's more a personal issue.

[EarthDragon]

Ouji, yes thank you I am trying. Dont get me wrong I am greatful for what i have learned and i still teach the same way. However I left my karate teacher, sold my car and quit my career and moved across the US under an impression and many years later come to find out that impression might have been wrong. i feel dorothy after pulling back the curtain...........LOL thanks to everyone for the postivitve comments... my knew avatar quote should be LET IT GO................LOL

[ChaoticMantis]

EarthD,

I have to disagree with you on certain things. Please let me present a different point of view.

Whether he added to the system or it was taught to sifu can be an endless debates. But like you said the system is effective and it works. I don’t know if you ever saw the sifu circulum from the early days, but it was well structured. It laid out in details of everything a student were to learn from grade 1-5 which includes all the 8 body corridations to throwing, joint locking techniques, forms and applications. Ask Dean about the early circulum, he will tell you that it is well structured.

In today’s world, most of us do not have the luxuary of training full time like the olds days. We would have to follow a teacher for more than 10 or even 20 years in order to learn an entire or most of a martial system.

Master Shyun modernized 8 Step and at the same time still kept the traditional training, so that a student can be proficient within 5 years to become an instructor.

His structurized systems works. As you get further within the 8 Step system you will see more traditional training because the foundation has already been laid to prepare you for the more advance training. Myself and a few other old students can testify to the more traditional training because we have reached that stage. I don’t know about his present instructors, I would have to ask sifu about it. Most likely his high ranking instructors have already started to receive the traditional training in the advance stage.

Master Shyun’s circulum is what attracted a lot people to his school. I was attracted to the intensity of the training. He has satisfy my hunger of martial arts and I do not feel any needs to look for another instructor for training.

One thing that blew my mind was that I was one of a few priviledged students to witness him performing the advanced fighting sets of 8 Step and the ground mantis. The fighting sets are not beautiful like the public sets that he teaches. It has a lot of the zhai yao movements and many more techniques that I have not even seen. The fighting sets needs to be performed with power and speed in order to be effective. The ground mantis form contained 360 movements and it takes a good half an hour to 45 minutes to perform. After seeing these advanced form, I finally understand why all the early physical training was a prerequisite.

[old8step]

earthdragon:

Once again I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions thoughtfully I am glad that the system does work for you. I think all of us talking together has helped shed alot of light on the system. Some good some bad but alot of truths have come out which is always good.

Chaotic: I have a question maybe you can answer as earthdragon has said Dean was the only 5th generation? do you know this to be true? I may not remember things as well since I was young at the time and it has been over a decade but I thought i had heard of other 5th generation? I like to think I was pretty close to Sifu during my training time and was priveledged to see some things that may not have been shown to the public. As you have confirmed when I relayed a set of moves that my Dai Low and Sifu used to go through as indeed part of ground mantis. and the fact i trained old school with the 1000 punches etc.

[ChaoticMantis]

Old8Step,

Please see the thread 8 Step Lineage Holder as my response would be more appropriate in that thread.

[EarthDragon]

Chaotic,
you assumption that I perhaps have not learned the system confuses me. I learned all the fighting applications, the 5 set applications, all the joint locks 40 throws, the Wu taji and its applications. as well as the anatomy tui na, bone setting, and 365 accupuncture points as well as 3 years of herbology.

i learned the old way through the grades all the way up until the sifu level 16 years worth. So i am confused why you said i havent learned the old and full way. I was the 5th highest ranking student in the US. above me was only dean, kevin loftus, george listjak, steve spoth and jack stuknik. that is all.

may i ask what level you reached? and if you are not a sifu which I know your not how can you say you know the whole system or at least more than I?

[ChaoticMantis]

Mr. Michael Haley,

I don’t understand how you can think I made an assumption about you. I only talked about the old days during the time Dean and I was around.

Whatever you said you learned, I will not dispute you because I was not there. I will let sifu and his other instructors validate your credentials.

Before I leave this forum, please check www.8step.com. I am sure you can identify who I am and my credentials.

Happy New Year!




PS - I guess you are wrong. Since the cat is out of the bag, I may still visit to forum from time to time and contribute. If any of you have questions, please feel free to send me a private message.

[EarthDragon]

Chaotic, i am confused, I dont understand what you mean when you said check the 8 step webiste. what am I looking for? are you lieng and your not from PA? who are you ? please tell me here or in private. Therefore i can figure out what this cat is that you speak of. Please stop eluding and elaborate , thanks be well.

[ChaoticMantis]

My name is Kin Mak, an old student taught directly by Master James Shyun. My rank is 3rd duan level instructor and I am listed in 8step.com website under instructors. I was certified around Dean's time, but I chose to be inactive until now.

Prior to this I was posting as ex_8step. I did not post anything specific at that time because I was reestablishing myself with sifu's school.

All of the instructors listed on the website are very qualify and skilled in the 8 Step Preying Mantis system and have help Master Shyun built a strong foundation.

They all have trained and studied hard to achieve their present ranking just like any of sifu’s students both past and present.

I am here to help bring to light a different perspective on Master James Shyun to all of you.

Respectfully,

[old8step]

Sifu Mak:

thank you for answering some lingering questions as always I am glad to have heard from both of you and Michael as there are always two sides to any story and I respect both sides.

Sifu Haley: I think i must disagree on one point that you made and this has nothing to do with discrediting you because i do believe everything you said and fully understand your point of view and yes Dean may have been the first to open a school and spread 8 step but there are other student's not including Sifu Mak who trained with Sifu Shyun in SF and reached very high levels and these student's did not train under Dean: I have seen their rankings and certificates personally. Once again this is by no means anything against you or your training I have met Dean and i know both of you are certified Sifu's in your own right and left Sifu for your own reasons but the five students you named are not the only ones of high level and some have never been mentioned on sifu's website for whatever reasons I do not know the only thing i can say is what I know from personal experience.

[commoner]

This is getting quite pathetic with all this 8 Step feuding going on. Yes, it was interesting in the beginning and I am at fault for taking part of fanning the flame.

But it is getting tiring. It is like watching all these reality shows. Interesting in the beginning, but it gets boring or even sickening after a while.

I don’t want to point fingers, but everybody (myself included) who has contributed to this feuding to please stop. Please contribute the good things about 8 step praying mantis or other mantis martial arts. MOVE ON PLEASE!