What's the difference between Shuai Chiao and Judo?

[Finny]

FWIW, there are some inaccuracies in both the article and Coach Ross' post (only one, really).

EITHER it is jujutsu or judo. There is NO middle ground here.

Early Judo was also called Kano Ryu Jujutsu.

Dragger spells this out plainly in his works on Bujutsu both old and modern; to wit 1. No Belt Ranks 2. No sparring, only kata and one steps 3. Training for the Battlefield only I could post more but you get the point. ALL traditional bujutsus were about killing someone in the course of defending or storming a castle, or fighting a large-scale battle.

Not really. The no belt ranks part is right, but several koryu jujutsu ryuha practised some form of sparring/randori - including the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, which is one of the two ryu that Kano studied, and based Judo on.

Not all traditional bujutsu were battlefield oriented. In fact, most were founded after the beginning of the Tokugawa Shogunate - when the country was at peace (ie. no battles to fight..). There is a marked difference between the techniques of say, Takenouchi Ryu Kogusoku Koshi no Mawari, and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu jujutsu. Takenouchi Ryu was founded around 1500, during the warring states period, and is geared toward close quarters combat, with a variety of weapons, while wearing armour, and fighting someone wearing armour - ie. a strong battlefield combat focus.

Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, founded around 1830, is largely a plain clothes, 'self defence' style of jujutsu, with no battlefield focus. There are some weapons defences, and a focus on joint locks, strangulations, breaks and throws. Takenouchi Ryu focuses on controlling the enemy, then stabbing them through weak points in their armour - ie. mainly has the exponent using a weapon (although there are unarmed techniques.).

Yes, there are a few styles in Japan keeping their old traditions alive. Just like some people in this country go into the woods and play "Civil War" for a few weeks every year. These are not living, changing, adapting systems; but people who enjoy playing Samurai. Nothing wrong with that; but don't try and sell it as a modern effective system.

No offense, but Mr. tripp obviously has very limited experience with the koryu bugei. Comparing them to someone 'playing civil war" is pretty rude - and I'm sure with some experience he would change his mind about that. And to dismiss them as ineffective with no experience in them... arrogant much? The Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is still (very) alive and well, and is just about one of the most awesomely brutal and effective grappling systems I've ever seen.

The fact is, using Draeger's definitions of Bujutsu/Budo as Mr. Tripp has is wildly inaccurate. Draeger's definitions were used for a purpose, and that was to highlight the fact that kendo, judo and karate were not classical systems. FWIW, having read Mr. Tripp rant on about the differences between the 'battlefield bujutsu' that Judo was (supposedly) based on, and the 'personal budo' that it became, it might be interesting to note that Draeger himself considered Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu, Kito Ryu Jujutsu (the two jujutsu ryu Kano studied, and based Judo on), along with other koryu founded during the Edo period, as 'Classical BUDO' - not bujutsu - he only considered ryuha founded before the Edo Period (Maniwa Nen-Ryu, Takenouchi Ryu, Katori Shinto Ryu etc.) to be 'Bujutsu'.

[Judge Pen]

I have little to no knowledge of either of these arts other than what I have read here and there and the following useless piece of ancedotal evidence. But since it's a slow day at work I'll share.

My future father in law is a black belt in judo (he hasn't practiced in years and he's not in any physical shape to teach me anything unfortunately) was recruited from Japan to BYU to wrestle for them. He told me that the toughest person he ever fought was an aikido practitioner because he would grab and control his wrists and hands so well and this was illegal in judo.

Ok, go back to SC and judo. John Wang's post reminded me of that story.

[ShaolinTiger00]

the judoka breakdown

- SC uses more circle motion; Judo uses more straight line motion.

-judo has both. ex the kusushi (offbalancing) and tsukuri (entering)for osoto gari is very linear, while a throw like hiza guruma or O guruma are very circular. practically swinging off your opponent like square dancing!

- SC uses more "stealing step – move one leg behind the other" to advance, Judo use more "covering step – move one leg in front of the other" to advance.

- tsugi ashi one foot leads the other follows. and tai sabaki must be done very swiftly as it involves turning movements. The feet rarely come together because of the desire to always have the most balance available.

- SC uses more "equipment training", Judo uses less "equipment training".

-Agree. tatame and a gi and you can do judo.

- SC has sole forms, Judo has no sole forms (not sure on this).

- Yes judo has no solo forms all judo forms are 2 man sets.

- SC uses more "tearing – break opponent's grab", Judo uses less "tearing".

-Grip fighting? judo has alot of it.

- SC uses "elbow cracking" to break grab. It's illegal in Judo.

-What is this?

- SC guy likes to run behind his opponent. Not sure about Judo.

-There are throws from the rear like ura nage and tani otoshi.

- SC uses more brutal force (run down your opponent), Judo uses less brutal force.

- Depends on the player from my experience.

- SC guy likes to control opponent’s elbow, Judo guy likes to control opponent’s wrist.

- Some judoka want wrist control, others want elbow (like me) others want double lapels.

- SC guy likes to hurt opponent’s hand grab (Black Hand techniques), it may be illegal in Judo to do that.

-some grip breaking is pretty nasty.

- Some major moves in SC are considered illegal moves (such as leg twisting, inner leg blocking) in Judo.

-Can you explain these?

- SC move such as “knee seizing – one hand push on shoulder, one hand pull below the leg” may be illegal in Judo.

no, judo has takedowns and pickups.

- SC has no ground fight, Judo has ground fight.

-yes. newaza

- SC uses 10 to 1 Dan (1 Dan is the highest), Judo uses 1 to 10 degree black belt (10th degree is the highest).

-yes

- SC starts from separation, Judo starts from grab on each other (no sure it has been changed or not).

- judoka start free standing about 6 feet from each other.

- SC uses force to force opponent to make commitment, Judo waits for your opponent to make commitment (not 100% sure on this).

Push when pulled, pull when pushed. judo often wants to turn existing motion into an offbalancing for a throw.

- SC is similar to XingYi, Judo is similar to Taiji.

-that's an insult. take that back!

- SC match do not allow you to grab on your opponent’s pants. Not sure about Judo.

-allowed.

- Most of the SC matches are performed outdoor. Judo matches are performed indoor.

-true.

- SC uses different “break fall” than Judo.

-yes.

- Joint breaking are legal in SC but may be illegal in Judo.

- You are allowed to joint lock the elbow in judo and your opponent is expected to tap out.

- In SC tradition, your opponent can turn down your challenge if he does not have SC jacket on. Not sure on this for Judo tradition.

- "challenges" do not exist. you just train and compete.

- In SC tradition, if you are killed or injured by your opponent when you have SC jacket on then you cannot sue your opponent. Not sure on this for Judo tradition.

- I'd like to hear a lawyers opinion on this one..

- Even in sport SC (not combat SC), some kind of striking (such as hook punch followed by head lock) before throwing are allowed. Striking is not allowed in Judo.

SC requires shoes during matches, Judo uses bare foot.

SC jacket is tight, Judo uniform is loose.

-yes.

- SC guy puts on his jacket infront of his opponent to show no hidden weapon (in the ancient time). Not the case for Judo guy (you would never know whether the Judo guy hides a gun or knife inside his Judo uniform or not).

-ooookkayyy.....

- Most SC throws starting with one grab and get the 2nd grab when opponent moves in. Judo starts with 2 grabs.

- depends on the throw. most involves both hands gripping

[SevenStar]

Early Judo was also called Kano Ryu Jujutsu.

yes, it was, but the name was technically incorrect as judo is not a koryu style. Consequently, it cannot be considered a jutsu...

[SevenStar]

ST00 covered these pretty good, but there are a couple I will add to.

- tsugi ashi one foot leads the other follows. and tai sabaki must be done very swiftly as it involves turning movements. The feet rarely come together because of the desire to always have the most balance available.

I think the other thing here is that SC lacks sacrifice throws. Consequently, "steal stepping" is safer for them than it is for judoka.

an insult. take that back!

n SC are considered illegal moves (such as leg twisting, inner leg blocking) in Judo.

can you explain these?

I think he's talking about grapevining the leg (inner leg blocking). If so, then yes, it's illegal. I dunno what leg twisting is, unless he's talking about leg locks.

[SevenStar]

I thought you said in SC pants couldn't be grabbed? In judo that would be fine. But, as you are throwing him onto his front instead of back, you wouldn't get any points for it.

[shuaichiao]

- You are allowed to joint lock the elbow in judo and your opponent is expected to tap out.

Yes but your allowed to throw with the locks in shuai chiao, your not allowed to do that in judo.

[shuaichiao]

I thought you said in SC pants couldn't be grabbed? In judo that would be fine. But, as you are throwing him onto his front instead of back, you wouldn't get any points for it.

You can grab the leg but not the pants.

[Finny]

yes, it was, but the name was technically incorrect as judo is not a koryu style. Consequently, it cannot be considered a jutsu...

LMAO

It was technically incorrect? according to who? 'cannot be considered a jutsu'??

One of the points I was trying to make with my post was that, although Draeger's black and white definitions served a valuable purpose - they are inaccurate generalisations, that most budo scholars disagree with these days.

Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu is not a koryu - I don't hear anyone saying it 'cannot be considered a jutsu'. An art is named by whoever creates it. Whether it is called jujutsu, yawara, koshi no mawari, kogusoku, torite, kempo, hyoho, kumiuchi... whatever - it's all 'correct'. These things are not black and white. They go case by case. There are numerous modern arts which are called xxx-jutsu. There are also several koryu which specifically call themselves or consider themselves budo. In fact, Kano was not the first person to use the term 'judo' - Inoue Jibudayu of the Jikishin Ryu called his art 'Jikishin Ryu Judo' way back in 1724 - is that incorrect too?

To quote from a book by Ellis Amdur - An associate of Donn Draeger's, and holder of both the Shihan license in Toda-Ha Buko Ryu, and Inkajo in Araki Ryu:

...Parenthetically, I might mention that Donn Draeger's formulation of bujutsu (martial arts/techniques) and budo (martial ways) was regarded by my instructor [in Araki Ryu - Finny], and in fact, by most Japanese, with bemusement when it was presented and amusement when it was explained. Araki Ryu, for example [a close quarters combat system, focusing on grappling with or without weapons, also practices kenjutsu, naginatajutsu, nagamakijutsu, kusarigamajutsu, chigirikijutsu, etc etc - Finny], which is surely one of the crudest and roughest of koryu, with a savage attitude towards combat, always referred to itself as a budo. For most Japanese involved in such practises, there was not a clear distinction between self-perfection and self-protection. One could become 'enlightened' with blood on one's hands....

...Japanese certainly understand the nuances of the words bujutsu and budo, when the two are used in conversation. Yet I have heard pugnacious individuals dismiss martial systems like aikido with the phrase "that's not budo." Only in America have I ever heard the phrase, "that's not bujutsu."

For the Japanese, anything can be a 'way' of being, even that of the bloodiest warrior, particularly if he devotes his life to something greater than himself.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are no 'categories' which you can lump the Japanese arts into accurately - 'jutsu' is koryu, 'do' is modern is a semi accurate generalisation, but one with many holes, and doesn't really work the way most people seem to think. It's not "you can't call a modern art '-jutsu'" it's more "most people who created or practised martial arts after the Edo period chose to call their arts '-do'." Folks following the Meiji Restoration were swept up in the modernisation movement. Martial arts were regarded as useless relics, and anyone wanting to promote them would have a better chance if they were advocated as a 'way' towards physical fitness and self-perfection - hence many Post-Meiji martial artists called their arts '-do' arts in an effort to highlight that fact. That doesn't mean that if someone called an art they invented in 1900 xxx-jutsu it's 'incorrect', just that it's not in line with the trend at the time. Toyama Ryu Battojutsu was created after the First World War, and calls itself Battojutsu. Never heard anyone call Nakayama sensei 'incorrect' for it.

[Kristoffer]

Good thread.
As posted earlier, joint manipulation and striking is a big part of SC. However, most modern competitions doesn't allowe these. You can lock let's say the elbow, but only if it's followed by a throw/sweep. Traditionally you could set up a throw with an elbow attack. Atleast Chang SC has the mindset ''strike first''.

[Mr Punch]

yes, it was, but the name was technically incorrect as judo is not a koryu style. Consequently, it cannot be considered a jutsu...

Yep, like Finny said: says who?!

Who is defining jutsu and do for you there?

Originally Ueshiba named aikido aikijujutsu, because he'd been schooled in koryu jujutsu and kenjutsu, and the same for Kano and his schooling and naming of judo. Who's to say they were incorrect?

Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu is not a koryu

Who says this Finny? They claim the origins back to the 12th century and Yo****sune... I know the records were destroyed in a fire in whichever castle it was but doesn't mean it7s false or it's not koryu surely?

In general, although I like Tripps article as a general overview, I think Finny's criticisms of it are relevant.

[SevenStar]

two things

1. the ref must see it

2. it must blatantly look like a strike

I mean, sure, I can drive my knee into someone's thigh as I am stepping through for a throw, or do any of the things that you mentioned. It's not sportsman like, but it can be done without being seen. I've been head butted in competitions. If the ref sees it and deems it as a strike, you'll be penalized.

[Merryprankster]

Let me say that you can absolutely do all of those things in a Judo match - provided you don't get caught.

LOTS of people throw uppercuts as they are jacking somebody for a throw.

[Finny]

Originally Ueshiba named aikido aikijujutsu, because he'd been schooled in koryu jujutsu and kenjutsu, and the same for Kano and his schooling and naming of judo. Who's to say they were incorrect?

Exactly - except for the part about Ueshiba training in kenjutsu (a common myth). Ueshiba was actually considered one of Takeda Sokaku's most gifted and senior disciples in Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu - and he taught his art as just that (DR AJJ) - till he and Takeda had a 'falling out' over Ueshiba teaching and not paying Takeda his due and Ueshiba (allegedly) ran away... and started teaching Aikido.

Who says this Finny? They claim the origins back to the 12th century and Yo****sune... I know the records were destroyed in a fire in whichever castle it was but doesn't mean it7s false or it's not koryu surely?

Sorry - I was definitive for argument's sake. I do know about the lineage tracing back to the 12th Century and the Minamoto Princes - Yosh!tsune and his brother etc etc.

This has been debated for years, with no sign of a concrete conclusion. Daito Ryu is a member of the two major koryu organisations (Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai and Nihon Kobudo Kyokai), and is regarded by most as 'quasi-koryu'. The art is taught in a semi-koryu fashion, but it's lineage is highly dubious for a number of reasons.

The major problem with Daito Ryu's 12th century lineage is lack of documented evidence - most all other koryu have both first hand and independent documentation. That is, they have their own scrolls dating back to whenever, but they are also mentioned in other documents of the time. Daito Ryu has neither - the earliest documented evidence of Daito Ryu's existence appeared with Takeda Sokaku (and he actually called it several different things over the years - it was initially called 'Yamate Ryu). The obvious rejoinder to that is that it was a secret 'palace art' of the Aizu (refering to the Oshikiuchi ["inside the threshold"] that he learned from Saigo Tanomo, and was therefore not recorded (a similar argument to that of the 'ninjutsu' folks). That's fine, but without documentation, there is no evidence. The story is that Oshikiuchi was a secret palace art taught to high-level Aizu clan members for use while unarmed inside the Lord's Palace, for those interested.

On top of these issues, there are several things which point toward Takeda Sokaku being the 'inventor' of Daito Ryu (DR even describes him as the chuko no so or 'reviver' of Daito Ryu - indicating that he played a major part in shaping the Daito Ryu practiced today). The art itself bears all the characteristics of being a Meiji Era invention - it involves extremely complex and sophisticated manipulations of the opponent - often at arms length. This is in stark contrast to the older (verified) grappling traditions like Takenouchi Ryu and Araki Ryu, which involve body-on-body grappling in armour, with a variety of weapons. Daito Ryu is more of a self-defense type of art, with the exponent usually unarmed - the high level of sophistication and arms-length joint locking type techniques became a feature of jujutsu toward the end of the Tokugawa period. If Daito Ryu was originally formed during the 12th century it would probably not look and behave like it does.

On top of that, there are significant similarities between Daito Ryu and Ono-Ha Itto Ryu kenjutsu. In fact, many of the jujutsu techniques are simply Ono-Ha Itto Ryu done without a sword. Takeda Sokaku was an expert in Ono-Ha Itto Ryu, and later taught it alongside Daito Ryu. Of course Ono-Ha Itto Ryu was a Tokugawa period creation of Ono Tadaaki, who was the senior student of Itto Ittosai, founder of the Itto Ryu, and was formulated nearly half a millenia after the 12th Century.

This is not to say that Daito Ryu was definitely created by Takeda out of whole cloth - perhaps the Oshikiuchi he studied from Saigo Tanomo formed the basis of DR, and was expanded upon and influenced by his expertise in Ono-Ha Itto Ryu. Perhaps he amalgamated the bits and peices of jujutsu he had learned over the years, combined them with his knowlege of Itto Ryu, and formulated DR. That's the problem - no-one knows. In any event, he was without a doubt a martial genius, and is (along with Kano) one of the most famous jujutsu experts of the Meiji/Early 20th century era.

hehehe - sorry about the rant.

[Merryprankster]

You would probably get warned for something that blatant, then penalized.

Striking isn't allowed in a Judo tournament, but there are all kinds of things people do. It's just not legal.

Gripfighting is nasty in and of itself and people often hack at joints. Footsweeping can fast become an exercise in low kicks.
"neck wrestling" is often important and can lead to headbutts, etc.

It's all about gaming the rules to cover up illegal activity, and aggressive play often helps cover up that behavior.

But it certainly isn't legal.

But remember, this is sportive judo. There's no reason you couldn't incorporate something like that from a self-defense perspective if you wanted to.

Just wanted to make a comment on the SC and Judo being natural enemies thing - that might have been true in Taiwan or wherever, but SC isn't big enough compared to Judo for anybody in the Judo community to care. If you say "Shuai Chiao" to 99% of Judo guys, they'll probably go "What the hell is that?" then if you tell them, go "Oh, that's interesting" then go back to practicing.

I really don't know why people get exercised over this stuff anyway.