What's the difference between Shuai Chiao and Judo?

[tjmitch]

I have done some of both. As far as the breakfalls go, to me what is important is what they have in common, not the differences. They both teach you through repetition not to do what comes instinctivly; to put out your hand to break you fall.Also to tuck your chin so your head doesn't bounce off the floor, not to let your knees knock together, etc.

Then if you look at the throws - take for example the shoulder throw in SC and the judo throw who's name escapes me that is basically the same throw. In SC, you are told to get his arm all the way over your shoulder, and in judo you use more of the crook of your elbow to hook his upper arm. They both work, so to me neither one is 'wrong' and I would rather know and be able to use both variations.

As far as the 'SC is more dangerous, you attack joints and drop people on their heads' , you can drop someone on their head just as easy with a judo throw. And all of this joint attacking must make for pretty short practices. Yes, I was shown throws that attack joints (ie, the outer shoulder throw) but when practicing it, you always make sure to get close enough to the guy that that you don't damage his elbow. In a real fight, screw his elbow. Well, if you look at a judo throw like tai otoshi, when you practice it you always have to make sure to get low on the guys leg to not damage his knee. In a fight, screw his knee. So its the same thing.

The one thing from SC that was different and I try to do is to not always grab the gi, to try to make sure you have a handful of opponent.

[shuaichiao]

As far as the 'SC is more dangerous, you attack joints and drop people on their heads' , you can drop someone on their head just as easy with a judo throw. And all of this joint attacking must make for pretty short practices. Yes, I was shown throws that attack joints (ie, the outer shoulder throw) but when practicing it, you always make sure to get close enough to the guy that that you don't damage his elbow. In a real fight, screw his elbow. Well, if you look at a judo throw like tai otoshi, when you practice it you always have to make sure to get low on the guys leg to not damage his knee. In a fight, screw his knee. So its the same thing.
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This is true but this thread is about the differences between the styles and there is a difference between a style that trains to throw to injure and one that can be adapted to do so, Just like there is a difference in practising safely if one guy focuses on how to do it in a fight while the other focuses on how to do it in a tournement.

[SevenStar]

I dunno if I'd put it that way... the judo throw can definitely injure - especially if the opponent doesn't know how to fall - his head is gonna bounce on the concrete like a basketball.

[shuaichiao]

I dunno if I'd put it that way... the judo throw can definitely injure - especially if the opponent doesn't know how to fall - his head is gonna bounce on the concrete like a basketball.

I'm not saying anything bad about judo but judoka mostly train for the sport and throw for the ippon. When the heat is on they're going to throw the way they've done it thousands of times not the way they think about it once and a while and the judo throws mostly throw people so that they pretty much breakfall decently even if they don't know how, unless they reach for the ground. Also since you practise at your school more than you compete or fight most judoka pull up on the arm as uke falls which will help him fall properly and prevent his head from smashing into the ground. I've done a couple of short stints at a couple of different judo clubs and I find myself doing that constantly when I work out with my old shuai chiao buddies and when I spar at san shou. I can't imagine how a long time judoka wouldn't do that in the heat of the moment. Sure judo is definatly capable of hurting someone but they train more not to while most shuai chiao guys focus more on the fighting side of the art than the sport.

[lkfmdc]

I've formally trained Shuai Chiao, and have plenty of Judo friends, while in THEORY the Shuai Chiao throws have more potential to hurt you, the reality is that even the "sport" judoka throws very f-in hard. Even on tatami and knowing how to fall, Judo throws are not pleasant. If they were on concrete

[lkfmdc]

The intention of Judo throw is trying to take down your opponent and then start a ground fight there (again, I may not be correct on this).

You should read Mark Tripp's article....

Regarding "early" Judo (around the time of the police challenge)

"Judo at this time was a slamming art with some strikes and pins. The art of submission was VERY limited"

The evolution so to speak, came later...

"another jujutsu ryu-ha saw the need to change their training methods and they too joined the Kodokan and began using the Judo training methods. This school after watching many randori and shiai sessions at the Kodokan made a simple observation; it was VERY hard to slam someone until they quit."

IE, later in it's development, the submission or ground work was adopted so that if the throw did not KO, you had something to follow up with!

[Finny]

FWIW, early Judo did contain some ground work (Tenjin Shinyo Ryu teaches a number of pins, chokes and 'submissions' ie. breaks)

But from what I heard, it was after the Kodokan held challenge matches with the Fusen Ryu folks that they really began to devote some time to ground work. The Fusen Ryu guys apparently spent a fair amount of time on the ground, and used this to their advantage when challenging the Kodokan - and apparerntly Kano learned from that... and that's where Kosen Judo comes from.

At, least, thats what I heard - could just be myth.

[Merryprankster]

YouKnowWho;

No, you are not correct re: Judo. The purpose of Judo is to finish the fight with the throw's impact.

ShuaiChiao, you are also not quite right. I say this because you must look at the training methods.

Simply: Do you try and injure your training partners when you throw? I'm betting the answer is no. If that is the case, then you are using "sportive training" type methods too, just like the Judoka. I am not interested in what people SAY is true about something - I am interested in what they DO.

The truth is that we all follow rules when we train. We all simulate fighting or else we can seriously injure our training partners and ourselves - and ultimately, it is better for us to follow those rules than not train for a while - or forever even if it's bad enough.

What people really wind up arguing about, IMO is what constitutes a "better" set of training rules, not "which art is more effective." Is it better to "Pull" certain shots or techniques with the understanding that those are "fightenders?" Or is it better to ban them completely and not pull anything?

That's really what this always turns into - a difference on training approaches. Neither art is superior. Just different training emphases - but doesn't make one better, worse, or even substantially different, given that a throw by any other name still uses the same principles and general mechanics (as I asserted in my previous post.)

As far as throwing to the back, that is considered "winning" because an opponent thrown to their back is considered "finished" on a non-tatami surface. Not an unreasonable assumption for a sport. Judo has one of the highest injury rates in the world, and my reconstructed left shoulder is a testament to how hard throws can be even on a mat.

[lkfmdc]

Merry,

Something to consider, there is an argument about the "belly up/back on mat" concept.... soem feel it is western wrestling influenced. I do think we can safely say that the new jujitsu trend has taught people that you CAN fight off your back and not only survive but win...

The Tokyo police for example have modified their training to get their officers used to putting a suspect face down, to keep him from getting to weapons, to control him, to cuff him...

Me personally, a slam is gonna hurt whether it is onto your face or back... but the stuff I've read on this argument is interesting

[SevenStar]

As far as throwing to the back, that is considered "winning" because an opponent thrown to their back is considered "finished" on a non-tatami surface. Not an unreasonable assumption for a sport. Judo has one of the highest injury rates in the world, and my reconstructed left shoulder is a testament to how hard throws can be even on a mat.

This is the point I was getting at. In judo, "the big ippon" is the goal. A person landing flat on their back, HARD, regardless of surface can take the fight out of them some, if not completely end it. As an added benefit, if you don't know how to fall, there is a good chance that your head will bounce upon impact.

[shuaichiao]

Simply: Do you try and injure your training partners when you throw? I'm betting the answer is no. If that is the case, then you are using "sportive training" type methods too, just like the Judoka. I am not interested in what people SAY is true about something - I am interested in what they DO.
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Some techniques can't be trained at full power or full speed the way we would like to do them. I still think it's better to practice the throw martialy and more controled than to help your opponant fall safely. On other throws like a hip toss or shoulder throw for example we don't come up on our tows and project the guy outwards on more of an ark that will help him rotate to his back the way judo teaches. We more or less bring the guy over and drop him. If you've been properly trained in falls you can twist yourself and take the fall but an untrained person would land on thier head, neck, shoulder or reach out for the ground and damage thier arm. We do a lot of fowards throws that would plant a guy on his face and chest. Agian if you haven't been trained in how to fall most people will reach for the ground and hurt thier arm or shoulder. Then thier are some throws that are meant to slam you on your back and flatten you out to expose the seperations in ancient armor that allowed for movement. These throws and strategies are one of the reasons that shuai chiao people fall the way they do.

[SevenStar]

Some techniques can't be trained at full power or full speed the way we would like to do them. I still think it's better to practice the throw martialy and more controled than to help your opponant fall safely. On other throws like a hip toss or shoulder throw for example we don't come up on our tows and project the guy outwards on more of an ark that will help him rotate to his back the way judo teaches. We more or less bring the guy over and drop him. If you've been properly trained in falls you can twist yourself and take the fall but an untrained person would land on thier head, neck, shoulder or reach out for the ground and damage thier arm. We do a lot of fowards throws that would plant a guy on his face and chest. Agian if you haven't been trained in how to fall most people will reach for the ground and hurt thier arm or shoulder. Then thier are some throws that are meant to slam you on your back and flatten you out to expose the seperations in ancient armor that allowed for movement. These throws and strategies are one of the reasons that shuai chiao people fall the way they do.

Right, but that first sentence is what MP is concerned with - you can't train them at full power and speed. That makes your training just as sportive as a judoka's in that regard. The ones that you can train at full speed, you do. the others, you do not. The only difference here is that the judoka can train all of his at full speed. There is nothing less martial about it, IMO. A throw is a throw. Whether he lands on his back or his head, the end result is similar. Whether or not you break a limb prior to / during the throw not as relevant.

[shuaichiao]

Right, but that first sentence is what MP is concerned with - you can't train them at full power and speed. That makes your training just as sportive as a judoka's in that regard. The ones that you can train at full speed, you do. the others, you do not. The only difference here is that the judoka can train all of his at full speed. There is nothing less martial about it, IMO. A throw is a throw. Whether he lands on his back or his head, the end result is similar. Whether or not you break a limb prior to / during the throw not as relevant.

Maybe. When you throw a guy on his back it can be painful. Maybe it will knock the wind out of him. It's possible he can bang his head, although it's pretty instinctive for most people not to let there head snap back even without training and the support methods I mentioned earlier help prevent that aswell. The idea of slamming him on concrete is fine but both arts were created before concrete. Would slamming him in the grass, sand or mud have the same effect? You may obtain a decided advantage but most likely the fight continues. It's a law of physics that slamming someone on a larger surface (back vs head) will spread the force out more and cause less damage. I don't think practising something the most damaging way but controlled is as sporting as practising it in a more helpfull manner. In anycase I'm not attacking judo. I've done judo for a few years and like it just fine but it's different. this thread is about what those differences are. Each time I point out one of those differences you feel the need to defend judos version of it but it doesn't need defending, not from me and not in this thread. But the truth is that shuai chiao strikes, locks, or whatever first and throws last and judo looks to throw first and continue from there.

[SevenStar]

I've done some of both as well - more of one than the other - but it's not defending, more debating. You said something, I disagree. Nothing more. IME, it's not true that most people instinctively know to tuck their heads. I've seen the opposite both in the school and in the street. And yes, the force is dispersed, but the pain is still very present. And yes, this would also apply to a grass surface. Getting slammed on virtually any surface can hurt. mud would depend on the depth. that would also apply to throwing them on their head. On water, a judo throw would hurt more, however neither would inflict anything serious, unless it was from a decent height. But this is getting silly....

as far as practicing in a controlled way, the point is that it's not live. they are not fully resisting you the way they would in competition or on the street. that is a key factor. you are practicing something more damaging, but in a less realistic way. a judoka would do the reverse - less damaging (in regards to broken limbs) but more realistically. It's a trade off.

[Merryprankster]

you are practicing something more damaging, but in a less realistic way. a judoka would do the reverse - less damaging (in regards to broken limbs) but more realistically. It's a trade off.

Precisely what I was getting at 7*. Thanks! Although, to use more neutral language, I might have chosen the word "live" vs realistically. One might argue that their way is more realistic since it includes the "dangerous stuff," but they can't successfully argue that the throw is practiced live when it is admittedly "pulled."

That, ultimately, is what people always wind up getting their panties in a wad about.

Sifu Dave,

I've got you on the whole belly/back thing. I was just getting more at "for whatever reason, they chose this rule, and the assumptions behind it aren't spectacularly bad."