Wah Lum's "Iron Door Bolt" Form

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Corwyn
I really can't speak for other arts. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could speak up.

From what I've seen and read some styles designate one student to be the lineage holder and everything is passed on to him. He then becomes the head of the system when his teacher retires or dies.

Other disciples may get the complete system (or not) but only one is designated top dog. In the case of Wah Lum this person is Master Chan's daughter Mimi. He also taught in a way that only she will get it all. Smart move on his part.

Master Chan keeps tight control on the Wah Lum system. You will not find a Wah Lum teacher that didn't come from his organization.

As far as good skill and being a good teacher, they are two different things. That's why you should look at the students, not the teacher, when evaluating a school.

Whether Mimi is a good teacher or not never entered the equation. He's leaving the system to family, good bad or indifferent. His choice, he can do what he wants.

Master Chan has organized the system and added a lot to make it what it is today. In a lot of ways it's his system which is based on Lee Kwan Shan's original creation.

In any system each generation modifies the teaching in some way. In most cases it's expected. In ome cases it changes enough that a branch style splits off and goes in a slightly different direction. That's how the different styles of Northern Mantis got to where they are today. So change is not neccessarily a bad thing. It adds diversity and new ideas. Without change the style stagnates and dies out.

[18elders]

Nope, soft form is not on the list.
But there are tam tui forms on the list that are not taught in wah lum. Does the current wah lum represent wah lum tam tui?

[brothernumber9]

From an outsider looking in, it would not be surprising if Sifu Tu Truong (sp?) or Sifu Bob Rosen or someone like/amongst them would also learn the "entire" system.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

18elders
You sound very sure of yourself. You know that for a fact? Have you seen examples of the 12 forms?

I only say it's possible because I don't know for a fact that it isn't one of the 12. I suspect it isn't, I just can't say for sure.

Whether it is or isn't doesn't matter much anyhow. I'm more interested in whether it really contains all the Wah Lum techniques.

Also, since I don't know all of the Wah Lum system (you know more of it than I do) I can't answer if any Tan Tui sets from the original 12 are in MC's Wah Lum.

All I know is what's listed in the handbook with the exception of WL Lan Jit. MC says WL has a version of it but he must have renamed it like he did with Bung Bo/Big Mantis. It leads me to believe there's more than what's listed in the handbook.

If that's the case then all 12 original sets could be in the system. I'd be interested in hearing if you have information that indicates they aren't.

Maybe those 12 sets are reserved for family only. MC is very old fashion and traditional.

[18elders]

I guess someone should ask Master Chan about?
Let us know what he says if anyone does.

If soft form contains all the wah lum moves??
Good question, if LKS has 12 forms he taught, and MC has over a 100, what would be all the wah lum moves? The 12 from LKS or the 100 plus from MC?

[ironfenix]

Since most of those sets have repeated movements, then you would have that many techniques to do I guess.

Side note - I had a dream that MC taught me a really advanced secret WL set but I couldn't remember it in the morning. It had some flying elements in it though.

israel

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

If soft form contains all the wah lum moves??
Good question, if LKS has 12 forms he taught, and MC has over a 100, what would be all the wah lum moves? The 12 from LKS or the 100 plus from MC?

I'm not good with math but if you had 50 moves there are an awful lot of combinations you can make out of them. I'm sure you could get more than 100 forms out of that. Personally I would prefer 12 core forms with all the moves than trying to remember 100 different variations of the core moves. Actually I like the idea on one big long form like some styles do, or like Soft Form.

I would say all the WL moves would be all the moves found in the original 12 sets plus whatever moves MC has added into the system. Remember it is his to modify if he wants.

Wah Lum is whatever MC says it is. Do you practice Wang Lang's Mantis? Has it been modified or anything added to it?

Is 8 Step Mantis any less authentic than 7 Star Mantis? Somebody dropped or added moves.

[Citong Shifu]

This is one of the other things that I didn't like about Wah Lum, there's too many secrets............. Who know's the truth????????? What is the truth???????? Everything is based pretty much on he said, she said. How can anyone obtain a real degree of skill and proficeincy without having the proper training and knowledge to draw / work from? It sounds as if there's only two people who have an actual understanding of Wah Lum; M. chan and mimi. Whats that say about 20+ years of teaching hundreds if not thousands of students??????? I'm glad that I'm not part of the uncertainty that surrounds this system anymore. Although, my days in Wah Lum were some of the greatest. I met many people, made lots of friends, and had loads of fun. Hopefully someday we can all meet again without bias and reunite old frienships.

Take care.
Citong.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I don't understand what the extent of MC's knowledge of forms has to do with what you learn.

There are plenty of Sifus who know much more than what they teach. Why is MC singled out? He knows many forms that are not Wah Lum. Is he expected to tell each new student exactly what he knows before they can learn something useful?

Is your punch any weaker or unuseable just because MC didn't tell you about some forms he knows?

I really don't get it.

Everything is based pretty much on he said, she said.

You're going to find quite a bit of that in MA.

How can anyone obtain a real degree of skill and proficeincy without having the proper training and knowledge to draw / work from?

By training what you learned and not worrying about whether MC has more knowledge than what he's showing you. Most Sifus hold back until they feel you're ready. He teaches Iron Palm, but not to everyone.

His Iron Palm jow formula is secret. Should you not join just because he won't tell you how to make his jow? If you don't learn how to make the jow does that invalidate the stances you learn?

MC takes the vast knowledge he's gained over the years and decides what will be included in the system he teaches. He is in no way obligated to teach you or anyone else everything he knows. He doesn't even need to have a school and teach. He could keep it closed door and only within the family. Or take it to his grave.

It sounds as if there's only two people who have an actual understanding of Wah Lum

I have a pretty good understanding of the Wah Lum system as taught by Master Chan. Whether I have an understanding of what was taught by Lee Kwan Shan is debatable. Most likely I don't have a clue. Does that mean I can't punch, kick, trap, throw, etc.?

Whats that say about 20+ years of teaching hundreds if not thousands of students???????

What that say's is that he put a lot of time and effort to build a large system out of a relatively small, obscure, pretty much unknown system. There are very few practioners of the original art created by LKS outside of MC's organization. If it wasn't for him nobody would know about the style and it woul have died out completely.

He could very easily claim to be the originator yet he continues to give credit to his first Sifu.

[Citong Shifu]

Sorry, I'm not trying to single out anyone, but we are talking about Wah Lum and pondering the facts on M. chan not teaching the complete arts etc....

As far as learning all his knowledge, I didn't say that. All that matters to me is that I learn what is advertised or promised to me. What does wah lum advertise; wah lum tam tui northern praying mantis kung fu. I didn't see all of his family arts in the name of the system....... Again, M. chan charges members tuition for kung fu training, so his knowledge on forms, etc is of a great importance. To not request or demand proper training from a teacher is like buying a lemon from a car salesmen.... Dont you agree?

As far as, was I any weaker, etc from wah lum training, YES...... When i started with my teacher now, Shifu Cai Ying, He wanted to completely review all my kung fu. Long story short, He had me start from the basic stances, postures, etc before he would accept as a regular student. I had no real power, speed, stability, etc. Pretty embarrassing. You know, I always thought I was pretty good back then. I had won several tournaments, etc, but I guess I was wrong. Anywho, I am who I am today because of my teacher now. He teaches me as I advance. He makes sure that I understand the teachings and the art so I can continue to increase skills. Most of all, he doesn't withhold anything from me........ Now, this is based on my relationship with my Shifu, if i was not trustworthy or a bully, I doubt he would show me everything. The point is this, Sifu's should be responsible for their teachings and students. Only in cases of students not being of good ethics should reserve be made on their teachings.

I dont know? This is my take on the whole thing. I don't represent the majority and dont want to, just me and my intent or ambitions.....

Take care and train hard.
Citong.

[woliveri]

To those who have been in Wah Lum and then had a Sifu who didn't hold anything back understand the different relationships. I agree with you Citong Shifu.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I had similar experience in Karate. I learned at one school. When I went to another school they told me I was doing things wrong and showed me their way. Then at the next school I was once again doing things wrong so they showed me their way. I got tired of that so when I signed up at Wah Lum I decided to stick it out.

I have had 3 different KF masters tell me 3 different ways of doing a proper cross leg stance. All 3 had valid reasons for why they do it their way and why the others are wrong. It all boils down to finding what's right for you.

I believe Wah Lum delivers what they advertise. I don't buy the argument from some that there's no mantis in the style. Most have later admitted that they see lot's of mantis in the style.

I don't believe the claims about Wah Lum being Choy Lay Fut since I've studied CLF and find it quite different than Wah Lum. There is a heavy southern influence in Wah Lum so instead of being a pure northern or southern style it has elements of both. CLF is a mix of north and south too so maybe that's why some think they are the same.

Does the name have to reflect all influences in a system? Can you point out which forms are from MC's family arts?

What do you consider 'proper training'? Just curious.

Now, this is based on my relationship with my Shifu, if i was not trustworthy or a bully, I doubt he would show me everything

So you did not have a close enough relationship with MC to learn what you feel you deserve? Is that your problem or his?

Traditionally in CMA you trust your training to your sifu and live with the decisions he makes on what you learn. It's our modern American way to expect everything to be handed to us. Cultural difference.

[Citong Shifu]

I hear you. Some teachers just want to bash other teachers reputation, so they tell someone their stuff is wrong, it's suppost to be done this or that way. This will happen no matter what, but kung fu is kung fu! Stances are stances, postures are postures, etc. Sure there will be variations and one will have to adhere to that stylistic difference, but twist stance is twist stance, etc. It doesn't matter how one does twist stance, what matters is if you can make it strong and stable with correct posture and intent opposed to looking pretty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As long as you feel your getting what you feel is the real deal, then you have found your art. That is a good thing. Others opinion shouldn't get you bogged down or hinder your real intent towards your training.

As far as wal lum being more southern inflienced, I don't buy that. The mok gar is noticably marked as is the mantis. Have you ever seen the traditional mok gar forms? But, this is my analysis. If you really wanted to find the answers to the questions you've asked, you would look deeper into you art!!!!!

Proper training, well, hmmmmm. Proper training is training that was intended to build great skill within the chinese martial arts, not to hinder or hold a student back. Thats a long discussion, proper training consist of so many elements its hard to generalize.


My relationship with M. chan and wah lum had nothing to do with what I deserved, but rather deserving to learn what I was explained and promised, " authentic northern praying mantis". I dont expect to be handed anything, but if one wants to put a price on the art then by all means I want what I want within reason of course. M. chan demands money for training. Do you think it's fair for someone to make you pay for something and give you what he/she wants. Can you tell M. chan how much less you want to pay him and expect more training, of course not.

I'm trying to be logical here, if he would have taught me for free then there would be no reason to wonder what and how much, know what I mean. I think alot of sifu's now expect us to give, give, give, but give less in return.

I'm sincerely happy that you found your MA calling with wah lum. I hope M. Chan and the rest of the organization continues to do well throughout the years to come. Your asking me very specific questions about things I would normally not comment about, so I'm sorry about any of my comments that may offend you or others.

Take care.
Citong.

[K.Brazier]

Within the list of Lee Kwan Shan's 12 forms is written Yau Ling kuen.

There is an old 7* form called Rou Ling Chuen. Could be that one, But I doubt it.

Yau could be rou which means soft.
There is the possibility that WL soft form is a poor translation of Yau Ling.

Also, Lian Huan Zhang is in WL's original 12 forms.
This name or a similar one is also in 8 Step, the manuscript was recorded in GM wei's book.

TJPM Also has a form with this similar name. I learned it in Taiwan. But the history of the form is that it came from Ditang ground fighting.

This may also be a form in common with old Wah Lum.

What to do?
Ask MC Chan t write the Chinese for soft form and rau ling kuen.

Compare all versions of interconnected 5 palms in WL, 8 Step and TJPM.

Kevin

[Shaolin Dude]

you guys got the list of 12 forms lee kwan shan taught? I thought it was a secret.