Wah Lum's "Iron Door Bolt" Form

[yu shan]

Shaolin Dude

I know who has it, but I have to ask permission. And I do not want to say who has it because out of repect. To see this list would not be a bad thing though.

[Chop Socki]

I've fallen so far behind in this thread that I don't have time to address all the things that jumped into my head (fingers?) as I read it, but one item did jump out that I wanted to react to before it got lost.

Several people have expressed the belief that, because they pay money, they're entitled to learn specific material, or at a particular pace. While this philosophy certainly applies when purchasing things like carpeting or women's shoes, I honestly don't believe that it's appropriate where martial arts is concerned.

What you are taught should be authentic - at least, within the constaints of the system you're learning. It should be meaningful, and taught with integrity and good spirit. When appropriate, it should be relevant. These things are a reflection of the quality of the school, and the respectful attitude of the instructors.

What you are not purchasing, however, is the right to order a la carte from the material that comprises the system, any more than someone who walks in off the street with no prior experience has the right to point to a weapon hanging on the wall and say 'I don't care about your stances and basic techniques, how much to teach me that thing'. In the same way, I find it entirely reasonable that higher level material is witheld until someone has demonstrated their honesty, integrity and willingness to work hard in order to achieve success. There's no specific duration of service associated with this: for some it happens quickly, for others, it may never happen, and much like one can never proclaim himself a 'master', I believe that if you have to ask for something you haven't been taught, you've pretty much answered the question of why it hasn't happened yet.

I'll finish with an analogy from my childhood: when I was young, I was a very serious classical musician, and took two private lessons a week from a very widely recognized 'master'. The arrangement he had with my parents was that for a specific sum, I would get 30 minutes of private attention per lesson. The far more meaningful arrangement he had with me was that if I had practiced hard and was prepared, he would stay for an hour. Like a good sifu, there was no fooling my teacher. If I had demonstrated the appropriate discipline and appreciation for what he was willing to offer, I was blessed with an hour of invaluable attention from a true master of his craft. If I merely passed the time between lessons, after 30 minutes, he would smile politely and leave.

I learned a very valuable lesson from that man, and I've been similarly blessed with martial arts instructors who lived by a very similar code.

- CS

[Corwyn]

CS,

Couldn't agree with you more! However there IS one caviot!
Imagine if that piano instructor was telling you (or your parents)
that "if you just keep paying me that X amount of dollars , I will show your son how he could be the next (I don't know any famous contemporary paino players)"
But the reality was that (like me) you couldn't cary a tune in a bucket.

You are absolutely right people progress at their own pace and some do not
posses the character. discipline (what ever) to be advanced. It is absolutely the duty and the right of the sifu to make that determination.

But the other side of that coin is that - if this is the case, then the sifu should tell this to the student and stop taking his money. Because that is just as disshonorable as teaching someone you know isn't "worthy". IMHO

[Chop Socki]

Corwyn -

Thanks for the kind interpretation. You seem to have captured my intent precisely. To clarify one point though, I believe that since everyone is 'blessed' with different levels of talent in different areas, it's entirely reasonable to expect people to achieve different levels of advancement in the martial arts. A sifu who continues to accept money and speak encouragingly to a student isn't necessarily cheating him out of his hard-earned cash, he may simply be trying to elevate him to the highest level which he, specifically, can attain. Of course, we all know stories about places where they hang black belts on the wall with your name on it the day you walk in and fork over $xxx dollars for the 'black belt program'. It might be a great motivational tool, but realistically, I've never believed that a level or a particular technique or form should be the reward simply for 'time served'.

I learned a long time ago that everyone's progress is best measured against their own full potential. Doing so has resulted in many opportunities to celebrate achievements that are meaningful to each individual.

Thanks again for sharing your wisdom, and good luck in your continued studies,

- CS

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Imagine if that piano instructor was telling you (or your parents)
that "if you just keep paying me that X amount of dollars , I will show your son how he could be the next (I don't know any famous contemporary paino players)"
But the reality was that (like me) you couldn't cary a tune in a bucket.
[clip]
But the other side of that coin is that - if this is the case, then the sifu should tell this to the student and stop taking his money. Because that is just as disshonorable as teaching someone you know isn't "worthy". IMHO

I'm not really following the logic here. Just because a student does not have the natural ability to make it to the top of the MA world and be a famous champion, practitioner or instructor doesn't mean they can't learn to defend themselves, teach or coach others.

I certainly hope your teacher isn't telling you he's going to make you the next Jet Li or anything.

Over the years I've seen extremely uncoordinated guys work hard go on to win at competitions. I've also seen plenty of guys who's skills are not impressive but are very good teachers and turn out top notch competitors.

The fact that I will never be an internationally recognized master does not prevent me from working to be the best I can.

BTW, bad analogy because anyone can learn MA. You don't need natural talent. It helps but it's not a requirement. However reaching the top of the field is a different story.

[woliveri]

The bottom line is if it is known that a teacher will only take you so far up the mountian and only his family members can go to the top then you either have to be satisfied with that or find another mountian. Of course, if a teacher is not clear that you will never get to the top of "his" mountian then that borders on shady teaching.

[Corwyn]

I'm not really following the logic here. Just because a student does not have the natural ability to make it to the top of the MA world and be a famous champion, practitioner or instructor doesn't mean they can't learn to defend themselves, teach or coach others.

I certainly hope your teacher isn't telling you he's going to make you the next Jet Li or anything.

Over the years I've seen extremely uncoordinated guys work hard go on to win at competitions. I've also seen plenty of guys who's skills are not impressive but are very good teachers and turn out top notch competitors.

The fact that I will never be an internationally recognized master does not prevent me from working to be the best I can.

BTW, bad analogy because anyone can learn MA. You don't need natural talent. It helps but it's not a requirement. However reaching the top of the field is a different story.

With all do respect I think you missed the point I was trying to make, or I just didn't really make it well, which is probably the case.

Let me try to say it another way.
As a total novice to CMA I am looking around my area for a school. I look in the phone book and the internet and find a half a dozen schools. All in some shape or form espousing their systems strengths and superiority to all others. Some even go as far as telling me that their lineage is from some secret temple etc.
I am smart enough to recognize this stuff for what it is so I move on to ones that are more realistic and give me what appears to be more genuine info.
I am physically fit, so I am able to do all the things required. So I decide to join after looking at the information available and the promise that I will be taught (fill in the blank) Kung Fu. ONLY, after years of commitment, hard work and regardless of how good or dedicated I am, I come to find out that what you really meant to say was that I will learn SOME of (fill in the blank) kung fu.

Now this has nothing to do with becoming the recognized leader/ inheritor of a system or a "superstar" MA. What it has to do with is a perceived contract.
I promised to be honorable and committed, train hard and pay my money. And you promised to teach me xyz kung fu. Not just SOME of xyz kung fu.

Now does this diminish the things I learned? No I don't think so. But I think that if you look at the many 8 step threads on here. Or the many people who have left WH. THIS may explain the reason that some have a very bad taste in their mouth. It may also explain why the so called McDojos are so popular.

Now whether this is an issue of CAVIAT EMPTOR from the students perspective,
a cultural clash/misunderstanding or something else is perhaps a debate for another thread.

Myself, I am pretty clear on what I want and whether my Sifu can give that to me. I believe that I am not betraying my teacher or showing any disrespect
to him or to the school by questioning how and why things work. More so I have the right to this as part of my responsibility as a student in order to determine whether those whom I accept as teachers are in fact worthy of said status.


I don't know maybe I am not making any sense and I am just rambling.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

This is a very good point being brought up. Not only should a student ask questions but he should also make it clear to the instructor what he wants/expects from the class.

If you were interested in learning the whole system and one day teaching it should be clear to the student whether that option is there. It should also be clear to the teacher that is your goal.

I think a lot of the problems stem from the instructor and student having two different ideas about the training. Sometimes the instructor isn't sure if the student is looking to get into shape, compete or become a teacher.

I think a lot of people get the idea that everyone pays and everyone gets everything. As unfair as it might sound it really doesn't work that way. Maybe it's just a difference is culture.

There's more to it than just paying for classes. In our typical American way of thinking that should be enough but from the Chinese perspective the payment is just a small part of it. In some cases your dedication and hard work counts much more than whether your tuition is paid promptly.

If you're in it for the long haul make sure your teacher knows that but you need to tell him in both words AND actions. He should be equally straight forward with you about your chances of success.

Now to use Wah Lum as an example again the situation is such that Master Chan has already taken disciples and had a bad experience with them. This happened well before I got there so there was no chance for me to be 'in the door' so to speak. So the best I, or anyone else, could hope for was to advance as far up the ranks as I could.

There were a few of us that wished he would open up and take a chance on a few more but it was a done deal.

[Citong Shifu]

That makes perfect sense.... This is what I've been trying to say in my last couple of posts. I compared it to the money issue for simplicity, but this only added another debate and others coparing apples to oranges..... All of us understand that regardless of payment kung fu takes many years to perfect. So enough on that issue....

I have got to learn to make better comparisons, lol

Citong.

[Citong Shifu]

That makes perfect sense.... This is what I've been trying to say in my last couple of posts. I compared it to the money issue for simplicity, but this only added another debate and others coparing apples to oranges..... All of us understand that regardless of payment kung fu takes many years to perfect. So enough on that issue....

I have got to learn to make better comparisons, lol

Citong.

[yu shan]

Iron door bolt is actually a technique. K. Brazier showed my older kf brother (18elders) how this tech. is applied. 18 elders told me it was almost like a dengta to the head. I will ask Shifu Brazier to show me this when I see him in a few weeks.

This thread has steered way off course. Very good thoughts by all though. I`m just happy I tell my newbie students... ya want to do Tanglang? And that is about it, no promises, just training and learning. It is what it is, no more no less. I have no gold at the end of the rainbow. But plenty of treasures to share. If folks want to complicate my life with this black belt master stuff, go away and find something else. It is not what I`m about.