A Call for Information

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'm going to just publicly ask if anyone out there has any information that proves dishonesty on the part of Master Chan Pui concerning his credentials, what he knows, or whether he conned anyone by misrepresenting himself or what he teaches, to just speak up and be done with it.

Lee Kwan Shan created the Wah Lum system and when he died Chan Wan Ching inherited the system. When Chan Wan Ching died Chan Pui inherited the system.

If this is untrue then speak up. He's been teaching for 30+ years and has been internationally recognized as the Grandmaster of the Wah Lum system and to date nobody has stepped forward to refute his position.

He is accepted by many other internationally recognized kung fu masters. Based on a lack of challenges to his claim of being GM I'm inclined to believe him.

As head of the system he has full control over what it consists of and what is taught. If this is not the accepted practice in CMA then let us all know.

Why Master Chan and Wah Lum gets singled out for things that are common practice throughout the CMA is beyond me.

Secrecy in the Chinese Martial Arts? Whoever heard of such a thing.

For the new guys it's sarcasm. Chinese Martial Arts have been surrounded in secrecy for hundreds of years. Only within our recent lifetime has some of the secrecy been lifted. To this day it still permeates many of the traditional schools and massters. Common practice.

[18elders]

Interesting topic.
Question, if MC had no intentions of teaching kung fu here when he arrived, who says he inherited the system? If the guy in CA is his senior, wouldn't he be the Grandmaster?
Also, why did chan wang chin inherit the system if he also was not the senior student when LKS died? And if he did, why did he go on to learn 3 other (non mantis) systems? Why not promote wah lum?

For the longest time people were split up on if chan wan ching created wah lum forms 1-6 or LKS?
Recently master chan admitted he made them up, why not let that be known from the beginning?

If MC continued his training with his older kung fu brothers, where or who are they? What did they know?
MC was a very young boy when LKS died, did his parents really keep him training after the master passed?

I don't think it is for people to discredit him, but how about telling the truth about the history etc?

Master Shr will tell you what he learned from who and when, no secrets.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Good, some interesting discussion. I was afraid my spouting off would just fuel a flame war and that's not my intent.

Question, if MC had no intentions of teaching kung fu here when he arrived, who says he inherited the system?

Basically, AFAIK, he says. Haven't heard of anyone challenging him on it. And as dumb as it sounds he could inherit the system and still decide not to teach. However it's probably more like he inherited it after he came to this country. Is there a problem with that?

If the guy in CA is his senior, wouldn't he be the Grandmaster?

Well I'm not really up on all the CMA rules and ettiquette but I don't think the most senior student is automatically the GM or inheritor. One example is MC leaving it to Mimi. Bob Rosen is senior to her but that doesn't give him any right to claim GM of the system.

Basically you're either designated by the previous GM, by your fellow students (if the GM didn't designate anyone) or you're the one who steps up to the plate and get it by default. It's my understanding that Chan Pui, being the youngest student, was designated by Lee Kwan Shan to eventually take over as GM. He had the best chance of living long enough to gather up the material that had splintered off in different directions over the years that LKS taught.

Also, why did chan wang chin inherit the system if he also was not the senior student when LKS died?

See above.

And if he did, why did he go on to learn 3 other (non mantis) systems? Why not promote wah lum?

Can't answer that. Have to ask CWC or maybe some of his KF brothers. BTW, some people stay with one style or sifu and others like to learn multiple styles. Maybe when he got all the Wah Lum he could he decided to take some time to expand his knowledge.

hskwarrior on the southern forum asks people that same question. He's Hung Sing CLF all the way, like his teacher. He doesn't understand why anyone would learn multiple styles either but people do. Go figure.

Steve Cottrell knows Northern Mantis plus Wing Chun. He decided to teach both. Maybe he could enlighten us as to why anyone would learn outside of their main style.

For the longest time people were split up on if chan wan ching created wah lum forms 1-6 or LKS? Recently master chan admitted he made them up, why not let that be known from the beginning?

Again I'll have to defer to the person in question. I have no clue how he thinks or why.

Let me ask this, did he ever deny making them up or claim that someone else made them up? Witholding info does not equate with dishonesty. Personally I think it would be better to be truthful up front but who knows what he was thinking.

Another question, does the fact that he made up some forms invalidate them as CMA? He seems more than qualified to develope forms in my opinion.

But then I don't hold forms as something sacred. Forms are just training tools and examples of usage. I believe instructors should know their system well enough to create forms and drills. That does not mean they can add techniques from outside the system unless they are the head of the system.

If MC continued his training with his older kung fu brothers, where or who are they? What did they know?

The ones still living (remember MC was the young one) are back in his home village and probably around Hong Kong somewhere. Based on what I saw at the Wah Lum China school and the new headquarters I don't think they know much. Looks like it's all here in this country.

I understand that during his China trips he would pick up new stuff that the elders wanted to impart before they died. I'm sure a lot has been lost.

MC was a very young boy when LKS died, did his parents really keep him training after the master passed?

Don't know. I'm not really up on the history that much. LKS died in 1948. What year did he lose his parents? I have no clue how long after either event he went to Hong Kong.

Do you think whatever students LKS had when he died just stopped or did one or more of them continue the school?

I don't think it is for people to discredit him, but how about telling the truth about the history etc?

I don't know how much of a secret it is but there is a book in the works. How far along or what the contents will be I can't say. Notes have been gathering over the years and there is an attempt to pull it all together and record the stories while MC is still with us. You've been to China with him. I'm sure you heard some interesting stories. I did.

Master Shr will tell you what he learned from who and when, no secrets.

That's good but it doesn't make a crook out of someone who doesn't. It doesn't make the kung fu they teach any less valid either.

Master Shr is more or less the new breed. Getting info out of these traditional masters is like pulling teeth. And that's especially true for those that aren't up close and personal with them.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I don't want to cast the Wah Lum Temple, and Master Chan Pui, in a negative light but if you sift through some of the threads on the main forum you'll see that the history of CMA has a lot that most would like to keep hidden.

Whatever Master Chan's past he certainly wants to distance himself from the criminal element that's permeated CMA in the past and still to this day.

After LKS died MC went to Hong Kong. Back in those days the only way to learn kung fu (fighting) was through a tong. Only gangsters learned fighting. So how did MC train in Hong Kong and with who?

EDIT: You know I'm sure MC belongs to a tong, I just don't know which one. I suspect he doesn't admit to that either, or talk about it. Not that tongs are a bad thing. They're just chinese associations, right?

[18elders]

never a war buddy, just a good discussion, i get alot of good mantis info everyday now with Kevin(he works here now).

[Oso]

never a war buddy, just a good discussion, i get alot of good mantis info everyday now with Kevin(he works here now).

man, I'm so friggin jealous...I've been seriously debating moving to Tampa anyway but with John and Kevin in the same town...hard to resist.

although...I can't imagine all you dudes as hearing aid salesmen...

[woliveri]

After LKS died MC went to Hong Kong. Back in those days the only way to learn kung fu (fighting) was through a tong. Only gangsters learned fighting. So how did MC train in Hong Kong and with who?

MC had/has buddies such as Lee Koon Hung (Choi Lee Fut), Wai Hong (Fu Jow Pai), Shek Kin, Mok Poi On.

He certianly had/has some HK connections and these connections were/are not Low Level Kung Fu dudes.

[yu shan]

dag nab it Oso, if you go I go! The TampaBay area is a great place to live, good call. One thing, no mountain biking!

[mantid1]

18

By your last statement I could could come to the conclusion that your current teacher did not give you a lot of good mantis. You had to wait untill Kevin came back. Now imagine me remembering that statement and reminding people of that for the next 20 years. Even though it came across in a way you did not mean it to. Just using this as an example of how things can get twisted over 30 years when it comes to MA history and politics. Do you think you will want to explain yourself to every person who wants to question you? I have heard your teacher is very good at CMA and has a vast knolwedge of mantis. He is probably much better than I am. This is just an example.

OSO wants to move to Tampa to be next to the two guys down there. It is much cheaper and easier to drive to Nasheville. That could also cause confusion in the future. People will be posting on the forums trying to track down OSO's training. Im just trying to make another point I know OSO has nothing but good intentions and is not doing anything wrong. Just an example of how things can get blown out of proportion.

Do any of us know without a doubt who developed each form or hand drill we practice? Probably not.

I try to look at the things I like about a system and not what I do not like.

From what I have seen I like the Pong Lai. It looks great. I like the WL also. Are they both perfect systems? No. But I like them anyway.

[18elders]

nice try mantid.

i do not work with my shrfu all day long. Kevin is employed at my company so we can talk about kung fu whenever we please.

it did not come across in a way i did not mean it to, you are twisting it to your post.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I was going to look for the new school last time I was down that way but I forgot to bring the address or your phone number.

Have to go to St. Pete tomorrow but no time to stop. Still want to meet Kevin in person. Maybe I can get some of that good mantis info too.

For the most part I'm just saying that there are other plausable answers to these questions that don't involve sinister deceipt.

You know, innocent until proven guilty.

[yu shan]

How can I delicately put this. Oso and I already have an agreement. He is my teachers project and anytime he wants to get with me, I`m all for it.

Kevin is my teachers older kf brother. He spent many more years with Master Shr and some of Shr`s teachers than my Shifu. We are all learning things from Uncle Kevin.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Plus I steal whatever I can from them when they aren't looking. :-) (got to get back to working out that 18 Elders ling side)

Some of you guys know me. Even though it's my school, my style and my sifu I try to be unbiased.

As much as I like him and Wah Lum I still wouldn't lie for him unless he laid some serious cash or advanced training on me.

[mantid1]

18

Yes you are right. That was the point I was trying to get across. It is very hard to keep everyone in a system happy and even harder to keep the ones who left happy.

I kicked a student out last year for teaching without permission. He actually set up 4 little clubs in a different city. He was also telling everyone that he trained with my grand master for 17 years. He only met him one time for a seminar. I told people what happened. Guess what? He sent me a registered letter today threatening ME with legal action. That is a nice thank you for teaching the guy for almost free for 3 years.

I feel like giving up. Then I realize that I will have to work for someone else and decide to stay

I just dont see reason for the petty bickering. Like I said I like your system. In fact I am going to stop in and see you guys in Tampa this June if possible.

[Oso]

dag nab it Oso, if you go I go! The TampaBay area is a great place to live, good call. One thing, no mountain biking!

ok, deal. I'll learn to surf.


mantid1: not sure what you're point was. i don't believe you particularly know the details of what little internal workings there are of our group. yu shan summed it up.

Shifu John readily acknowledges Shifu Kevin as his older brother and thus our uncle. Jim and Steve are my older brothers and by rights of that, also my teachers. Jim's generosity and willingness to extend a hand is the reason I'm with Pong Lai. Kevin's info on Master Shi and mantis is general has very few peers. To be able to be around both of those people is something to be envious of.


You are right about politics though you don't name it as such. I abhor the ego driven BS that goes on in the martial world and am determined to not be a source of it and committed to open communication about everything as I believe that is the key to avoiding it.


well, time to go make my daily attempt to pass on what I've learned....