Process Change Request: Deletion of Threads

[KPM]

but before I would like to offer you a digital mirror , all of the tendencies [except you wrap it up in more politically correct dialogue , which I consider a sign of being fake when ever any one plays that role ] you have shown in your own Saga ,,, the Pin [head]sum universe according to Keith and Jim ]
were you time and time again dragged the forum down your little personal spat with Jim , as if we cared , this was an arrogant assumption to think we cared , just like thinking any one cares what the hell is going on with you and I right now beyond comic relief ] then you showed a very stubborn tendency , continuing to badger away just to get your point across [which in the grad scheme of life doesn't really matter , just like mine right now ] but you have shown these repetitive pattern to just nag and drag things on ,,,,,,, so in any social circle this would thin out the heard around you real quick and some one hopefully a friend would tell you to , dude kick back your acting like a freak , relax , get a life ,,,, sound familiar ! [ insert bells , whistles and fire works ]

so I would like to help you here buddy by saying it's OK to hate me , I forgive you , I understand you can't help yourself , I forgive you
you are a very ''centered'' individual , best wishes and puppy dog tails E.

OK. So that's the way it is. Pretty typical for here in this forum....admit no wrong-doing on your own part......ignore the message......attack the messenger. Nothing personal against you Ernie. This forum has been going down hill for awhile now. That's just the last straw for me. It seems that I am part of a very small minority that sees forum conversations as the equivalent of face to face conversations and believes that participants should be granted the same basic courtesies. I'll be spending my time elsewhere from now on. But you probably think that's funny too! So long everyone!

Keith

[Ernie]

OK. So that's the way it is. Pretty typical for here in this forum....admit no wrong-doing on your own part......ignore the message......attack the messenger. Nothing personal against you Ernie. This forum has been going down hill for awhile now. That's just the last straw for me. It seems that I am part of a very small minority that sees forum conversations as the equivalent of face to face conversations and believes that participants should be granted the same basic courtesies. I'll be spending my time elsewhere from now on. But you probably think that's funny too! So long everyone!

Keith

Au revoir

--- but really Kieth , thick'n up that Skin playa , stay in the game !
you pretty much told me i'm full of $hit ,,,, and I ain't mad atcha
just put me on ignore , i'm nobody special any way

[PaulH]

Keith,

You might as well. You're unhappy and that is understandable considering the outcome of your unfulfilled expectation of the others from the forum lately. I think you'll be much happier working toward meaningful goals elsewhere anyway. But should you to opt to stay and improve further this forum, all the more admirable of your characters. All I can say is conversation is often the demostration of goodwill in the face of apathy. And that's very human in all of us. Keep it light and free if you can.

[Matrix]

It seems that I am part of a very small minority that sees forum conversations as the equivalent of face to face conversations and believes that participants should be granted the same basic courtesies.

Keith,
Like common sense, common courtesy isn't too common these days. While it doesn't make it right, you'll save yourself a lot of grief by lowering your expectations, not your standards, in that department. Expecting others to live up to a standard that you've personally decided to believe in is often setting yourself up for disappointment.
Having said that, just keep your mind on the things that you can control. As the Buddha said "Be a light unto yourself".

Peace,

[Matrix]

i'm nobody special any way

The first step towards a solution, is admitting that you have a problem.

[Ultimatewingchun]

See...I told ya Ernie would offer an olive branch.

Well, sort of....

Hey Keith: If you split tha'll be one less guy around here who agrees with me about the Wing Chun as a MMA approach!!!


Jeez, I hate that!

[Ernie]

The first step towards a solution, is admitting that you have a problem.

I'm glad you approve , but i can't stop being honest

[Phil Redmond]

. . . His training practices seem to be of a more realistic nature, in other words not pure WC, . . . .
James

Does that mean "Pure WC" isn't realistic? Also, what is "pure" WC. That is a sad statement for WC if that's what you meant James. There is no such thing as "pure" WC. Especially in YM WC where there was no specific curricullum (sp)? Didn't WSL said don't be a slave to WC?
Phil

[ghostofwingchun]

This is not meant to be criticism of any person in particular . . . but I am thinking that it is not good for people to speak for wc . . . to say wc is meant to do this or that . . . or to say wc is meant to be like this or that . . . or wc has this or that . . or wc has this agenda . . . or wc has this vision . . . or wc is . . . wc is . . . wc should be . . . instead I am thinking it is better to say my wc has this focus . . . my wc is meant to do this or that . . . my intention with my wc is this or that . . . my agenda with wc is this or that . . . and so on . . . it is not wc that any of these things . . . it is the people who practice wc that bring them to the art . . . it is a good thing to share . . . but share along lines of this what you do how you approach art and so on . . . and leave speaking for wc out of it . . . when person speak for wc they sound presumptous and arrogant I am sorry . . . I am thinking it is easy to lose perspective that our goals focus intention desires agenda and so on may not be same for others . . . so using woman's art as example it is a fine thing to say this is how you view wc or your expression of wc is a woman's art but understand that you are not right . . . that you do not speak for wc . . . and that some other persone may approach wc differently . . . and neither of you speak for wc . . . each are perfectly valid . . . same with nhb wcers. Many of the things kj says in explaining her view I too have found from my experience . . . but some of her views do no match my experience . . . I am not a woman so I do not want to fight like general woman . . . I want to practice wc and fight like me . . . if someone is tall why fight like small person . . . person is fast they should use it . . . if person is slow they need to deal with that . . . and so on . . . to make wc suit me not some ideal . . . my experience is that smaller weaker can not wait or be patient in fight . . . that smaller weaker need to be more aggressive to win . . . it is bigger stronger that can wait or be patient . . . and I have other nitpicks too . . . but my point is kj's view is for her wc to be woman's art . . . this is fine . . . for me I have different view . . . neither of us speak for wc . . . I have found that if I am smaller and weaker I should be more aggressive . . . this is what I must do . . . I share that not to tell others how wc must be done but to say this is idea that has worked for me . . . perhaps it can work for you . . . and perhaps not. I very much like hearing others views and experiences about wc . . . and want to hear more . . . as this helps me in clarifying my own views . . . but emotional investment in speaking for wc only brings conflict . . . at least this is how I am seeing it.

Thanks,

Ghost

[sihing]

Does that mean "Pure WC" isn't realistic? Also, what is "pure" WC. That is a sad statement for WC if that's what you meant James. There is no such thing as "pure" WC. Especially in YM WC where there was no specific curricullum (sp)? Didn't WSL said don't be a slave to WC?
Phil

No Phil, my statement does not mean WC is not realistic. But it is a pure form of MA IMO. Yeah we all do it differently, but for your family it is pure (or it should be at least), or it should be passed down in a pure, authentic form. Then after the student has learned and absorbed the delivery system, they are free to express it anyway they like. Ernie's way, IMO, is much more leaning towards building attributes that teach fighting skills earlier in one's progression. I teach WC (not just fighting), which as a by product teaches one many things, primarily the ability to defend one's self. There is a process here so that the student learns Wing Chun specifically, in a step by step manner. If all they really wanted is to learn to fight, I could teach them that in a day. All they would need to do is to practice it over and over until it becomes second nature. KISS philosophy here.

James

[Ernie]

No Phil, my statement does not mean WC is not realistic. But it is a pure form of MA IMO. Yeah we all do it differently, but for your family it is pure (or it should be at least), or it should be passed down in a pure, authentic form. Then after the student has learned and absorbed the delivery system, they are free to express it anyway they like. Ernie's way, IMO, is much more leaning towards building attributes that teach fighting skills earlier in one's progression. I teach WC (not just fighting), which as a by product teaches one many things, primarily the ability to defend one's self. There is a process here so that the student learns Wing Chun specifically, in a step by step manner. If all they really wanted is to learn to fight, I could teach them that in a day. All they would need to do is to practice it over and over until it becomes second nature. KISS philosophy here.

James

Funny thing James , since you have never trained with me , or Gary it would seem your back on the assumption train again

i could just as easily say , that people your Kwoon stretches out the system adds in
non wing Chun things like high kicks , chi gung, carido kids classes the all in one kung fu shop just to make money , and none of things belts , grading , uniforms have anything to do with Yip Man wing Chun at all or the correct way to teach it

and then i of course would be making assumptions right

but yes i will give we are result driven not social club driven

[kj]

You post is a fair one, Ghost. You are good at getting the mental juices flowing, so here are a few more thoughts.

. . . but my point is kj's view is for her wc to be woman's art . . .

Not that this was the concern of your post, but just a minor point of clarification, FWIW. In writing on the subject (per your quote), I was addressing a question someone asked about my teacher's contention. If our fellow forum member had not asked, it is highly unlikely I'd have bothered to offer it. However often we may cite the quotation, it is a credit to my teacher. He doesn't offer any apologies for asserting it. Nor will I. The saying's provocative nature is one of its greatest values.

[Just for the record, my teacher is not a small woman. ]

Both sympathizers, detractors, and people simply chewing over something, like to reference or discuss topics like this from time to time. Therefore I attempted to be fairly crisp in the introduction of the topic for discussion (well, at least for me, LOL). As a thread title, it is also easily searchable (assuming the thread title sticks in the archives now that it's been moved into Hardcore). The explanation I offered is of course my own interpretation, so only I am to blame for that, LOL.

My own posts are often peppered with acquiescences in hopes of soothing sensitive souls and savage beasts; disclaimers possibly in annoying degrees, LOL. I included a limited disclaimer on the subject at hand, though it was my intention not to veil or soften the point I was attempting to clarify. I am confident that many others, in sharing their thoughts or viewpoints and regardless of sympathy or antipathy to my views, wish to avoid dampening their meaning when they write also.

. . . my intention with my wc is this or that . . . my agenda with wc is this or that . . . and so on . . . it is not wc that any of these things . . . i

I agree with your intent here. We are not here to impose upon one another, and anyone who is, is misguided. At least misguided in my case since I'm incorrigible until I decide otherwise, LOL. Certainly it is not my aim to impose on others.

IMHO, every post should be read as if it contains the author's own "my" disclaimer (opinion, view, experience, observation, belief, practice, etc.), whether or not one is explicitly written. Even if a person sincerely believes they possess the one and only truth (and even if they actually do), or attempting to emotionally strong arm, win favor through rhetoric, etc., everyone should be read with a grain of salt.

We may sometimes debate semantics and certainly we debate on technical issues. Yet I share a deep core value with Ernie and some others on the spirit of taking full ownership, responsibility, and accountability for ourselves and our own development. Further it is our own responsibility to avoid being bound, tricked, fooled, or unduly influenced in our thinking by the will or wiles of others. Caveat emptor in everything. A double dose in discussion forums!

Regarding impoliteness. In my view, name calling is impolite. Telling other people what they supposedly think or what kind of people they are is impolite. Stereotyping individuals rather than discussing issues at hand is impolite. Failing to show respect for the person, the real human being behind the words, is both impolite and uncivil. Being direct about one's thoughts or beliefs is, IMHO, something to be commended. Those with the forthrightness to say "this is what I believe" should be thanked for it. Dissent, disagreement, and conflict can lead to new discoveries, insights, growth, and progress.

BTW, I admire your painstakingly patient style. Directness has its practicalities, as does the path of considered cautiousness. Everything to its own advantages and disadvantages. To me, it's an issue of balance; what is required in order to achieve balance can vary, even moment to moment.

Like you, I appreciate the overwhelming and often unintended impact of behaviors. That isn't to imply I'm well behaved, LOL.

In case you are interested in such things, here is a link to a book on the topic of civility that I especially enjoyed.

Lest it go neglected as usual, it seems worth saying that there are a great number of folks on this and other forums who've won my further respect through the years, and regardless of agreement on issues relating to Wing Chun. Hopefully many of them know who they are.

This is all just my opinion of course. I also reserve the right to change my mind at any time.

Regards,
- kj

[lawrenceofidaho]

The question is: whose reality? As you and others on this forum may NOT know, there are many perspectives of reality........The only way to find out is definately not by wearing birdcages or boxing gloves as far as wing chun is concerned

When you're sparring, unless you are a sick & insecure individual, you will avoid the following types of attacks:

1) Clubbing a stunned opponent that is barely able to defend themself in the back of the head as a follow up to a striking combination. (Instead, just back off knowing the opening was there, or simply push them and take their balance causing them to fall down.)

2) Gouging your thumb or fingers hard into someone's eyes (versus gently setting them on top of a closed eyelid to show that they would be vulnerable to an eye strike from that position.)

3) Soccer kicking the face of a downed opponent with full power with the intent to drop his teeth down his throat. (Why not just air kick without contact?)

4) Explosively cranking a heel hook and destroying an opponent's knee. Or for that matter any explosive joint submission which might break bones or injure joints in such a way that a martial arts career might be permanently affected, or even ended. (Instead, apply the submission with slower, steadily increasing pressure to give the opponent ample time to tapout and avoid snapping something.)

Justin (Amanujry) recently referred to his military experience and brought up the example of war games being analogous to sparring. I thought this was a very good parallell because it is an attempt to closely simulate some of the chaos and unpredictability of combat reality while minimizing serious danger and injuries. -If the military stupidly insisted on "real" war games (using live ammo, etc.), there would be few troops left to defend the nation, -or on the other hand, if they limited the soldiers' training only to structured drills, they would not be prepared for battles. There must be a balance struck to ensure optimum preparedness with minimal injury, and of course, to realize the limitations of any training scenario versus actual application (where things like the techniques in my list above are allowed.)

-Lawrence

[sihing]

Funny thing James , since you have never trained with me , or Gary it would seem your back on the assumption train again

i could just as easily say , that people your Kwoon stretches out the system adds in
non wing Chun things like high kicks , chi gung, carido kids classes the all in one kung fu shop just to make money , and none of things belts , grading , uniforms have anything to do with Yip Man wing Chun at all or the correct way to teach it

and then i of course would be making assumptions right

but yes i will give we are result driven not social club driven

Assumptions are always prevalent when people have no real information about one another. If my assumptions are wrong concerning someone else on this forum then I have no problem being corrected concerning the matter.

Concerning my Sifu's kwoon, I think it makes sense to use the space that he is paying for as much as he can. Why not offer courses that may or may not be Wing Chun related. Since I worked there, all of the courses, except Yoga which is sometimes on and off, are WC related. The conditioning classes (not really Cardio classes), use exclusively WC movements and techniques. The kids learn WC, not some other form of MA. High Kicks are taught, and whether or not they are considered a traditional aspect of the art is debatable. If I fight someone that is 5' tall, kicking them in the head is not a high kick for me, but kicking someone 6'4" in the head is. Plus, how one is supposed to practice defending, and have knowledge of these movements without knowing how to perform them. Whether or not this is traditional Yip Man WC, I believe this is not a high concern for my Sifu. He sets up the curriculum the way he sees fit, to benefit the students the most in his opinion. People there are getting 25+hours a week of instruction, as well as access to private lessons from the top instructors, access to all the equipment, all included in the monthly fee($95 CAN for an adult). Good value if you ask me.

In Sifu's school, it takes relatively 7 years to learn the entire system. Pretty standard time to learn the entire system compared to other schools, thus I have heard. If someone wants to learn it faster they can, as nothing is impossible.

Nothing wrong either with make a profit at it. As long as the quality is high, and the students are learning something real (in this case a real form of Wing Chun), it is a good place to learn. Just yesterday, at a Martial Arts council meeting they have here in Thunder Bay, they were talking about how one of the TKD instructors in town was selling black belts and how some of his students (who were former students of the people at the meeting) went from red to black in one month. Obviously, profit is the motivation concerning this instructor. This is when it becomes a problem.


James

[ghostofwingchun]

Thank you kj for your reply! I was not . . . I hope you realize . . . criticizing you in any way . . . I know you were only answering my query and expanding on what your instructor meant . . . and I was just using your post as point of departure for my own developing thoughts . . . I agree with you one hundered percent that civility is paramount to discussion . . . since discussion involves first and foremost concern with trying to understand other . . . not just get your own view across . . . screaming at other or calling them names is not discussion . . . this is Jerry Springer . . . and in my view is more about ego identification and emotional investment than discussion . . . not with trying to understand others or learn through intelligent discussion. . . but to convince others their view is right. The trouble is . . . there is no right if goals or objective are not the same . . . and often even if goals are the same there is more than one right way to achieve them . . . sometimes many ways. Your views . . . whatever they are . . . may serve you well . . . just as Ernie's may serve him well . . . my views may share in part with you in part with Ernie in part with others . . . this is all good and as it should be I am thinking. It is easy thing to view world as black and white . . . it takes more work to see things in shades of gray . . . Bertrand Russell said The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. I am thinking maybe if we less certain of ourselves we could be more understanding of others. . . but I could be wrong . . .lol.

Thanks,

Ghost