The Wing Chun problem...

[Buddha_Fist]

I found the following in a German discussion forum:

"It seems to me that fighting has become in Wing Chun a Holy Grail with metaphysical proportions. It has become something that everybody is talking about, yet nobody knows or has ever seen. That's the reason why it doesn't matter in Wing Chun whether the training forges real fighters or not; it completely suffices when the training generates the believe that this is the best way to prepare oneself for a tough fight. The (supposedly) aggressive attitude towards fighting, even though fighting itself remains somewhat unreal, is one of the reasons for this phenomenon."

(Taken from http://www.wt4um.de/viewtopic.php?t=...er=asc&start=0)

I know that this topic has been discussed plenty of times, yet I find this post to describe rather accurately the problem prevailing in the Wing Chun scene. Robotic prearranged moves in drills that are chewed over and over 'til exhaustion + believe in an instructor who has never fought competitively to do a reality check on his real skills = Present state of Wing Chun.

[Ernie]

When there is no goal , checks and balances people can and will do anything they like and call it wing chun or what ever system they prefer .

when people create there own bubble [there drills , there test , there little universe were there idea's work because they only do the same stuff to each other ]
they will then fool themselves into thinking the have some thing , but this is the rice bowl way

people just don't want to get hurt , but want to pretend they have all the skills in the world [because on paper it says so and of course the ''Sifu says'' clones ]

but this is human nature

[ghostofwingchun]

When there is no goal , checks and balances people can and will do anything they like and call it wing chun or what ever system they prefer .

when people create there own bubble [there drills , there test , there little universe were there idea's work because they only do the same stuff to each other ]
they will then fool themselves into thinking the have some thing , but this is the rice bowl way

people just don't want to get hurt , but want to pretend they have all the skills in the world [because on paper it says so and of course the ''Sifu says'' clones ]

but this is human nature

I am thinking that it is not always the case of not having goal . . . but of having different goal . . . one person's or group's goal is not yardstick by which everyone is measured . . . some people play basketball for fun . . . not to be competitive basketball players . . . others want to play at NBA . . . some people play basketball for socializing . . . some just to get exercise . . . and so on . . . basketball like wc serves us I am thinking. . . we make it what we want it to be. Anyway . . . I may be completely wrong . . . but this is my thinking at present.

Thanks,

Ghost

[couch]

I am thinking that it is not always the case of not having goal . . . but of having different goal . . . one person's or group's goal is not yardstick by which everyone is measured . . . some people play basketball for fun . . . not to be competitive basketball players . . . others want to play at NBA . . . some people play basketball for socializing . . . some just to get exercise . . . and so on . . . basketball like wc serves us I am thinking. . . we make it what we want it to be. Anyway . . . I may be completely wrong . . . but this is my thinking at present.

Thanks,

Ghost

The only thing I gotta say to this (and I may avoid the comments to come later!!!):
If you play basketball for fun, exercise and socialization, you know that if you take your game to the LA Lakers, you're gonna get your butt kicked. At least that's well known. At least that I would know that I'm gonna get whooped and I can't use my "recreational" basketball skillz against an NBA player. If I want to "survive" a game of basketball with just about anyone on the planet (assuming I would be walking in the woods and someone would jump out of nowhere and force a game of one-on-one basketball with me!), I have to train as best to my ability to avoid a horrible loss. Sidenote: Just as if I met Couture in the bar and would buy him a beer instead of p!ss him off, if I saw Jordan - I may decline.

Now herein lies the many paths of martial arts. I agree that many people choose many reasons for joining the martial arts. It's just that false confidence that scares me. "I do martial arts. I'm deadly."

Me opinion,
Kenton

[kj]

Now herein lies the many paths of martial arts. I agree that many people choose many reasons for joining the martial arts. It's just that false confidence that scares me. "I do martial arts. I'm deadly."

Dead on, Kenton.

Regards,
- kj

[ghostofwingchun]

The only thing I gotta say to this (and I may avoid the comments to come later!!!):
If you play basketball for fun, exercise and socialization, you know that if you take your game to the LA Lakers, you're gonna get your butt kicked. At least that's well known. At least that I would know that I'm gonna get whooped and I can't use my "recreational" basketball skillz against an NBA player. If I want to "survive" a game of basketball with just about anyone on the planet (assuming I would be walking in the woods and someone would jump out of nowhere and force a game of one-on-one basketball with me!), I have to train as best to my ability to avoid a horrible loss. Sidenote: Just as if I met Couture in the bar and would buy him a beer instead of p!ss him off, if I saw Jordan - I may decline.

Now herein lies the many paths of martial arts. I agree that many people choose many reasons for joining the martial arts. It's just that false confidence that scares me. "I do martial arts. I'm deadly."

Me opinion,
Kenton

Mr. Kenton thank you for your reply! Yes . . . I agree with much of what you say. . . let us consider for moment that being best basketball player I can be is both our goal . . . let us also say that I wish to share with you that certain forms of training has been very helpful to me . . . why not just say so . . . I have found that being in good condition for example has helped my game and that when I wasn't in as good condition it made me less able to play . . . instead of making it a commandment . . . thou shalt be in top condition . . . lol . . . maybe then someone will listen and say OK maybe I should try that too . . . if you have found a good strategy why not share that you have found this works for you . . . and not as this is strategy we should all use . . . and anyone not using it is a moron . . . do you see what I am getting at? Also why be concerned about what others do . . . or feel . . . it is fine for you to say that you do not wish to have false confidence . . . that you want to know from experience you can fight . . . others may feel differently . . . take it on faith . . . maybe they are wrong . . . maybe not . . . so what . . . you can only choose for you not for others.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Phil Redmond]

I was going to write that the problem is not enough realistic training. I agree with Ernie that there are paper Tigers out there. Then I saw Kenton's post and had to agree with him as well. Everyone doesn't train to be a fighter. WC to some is a hobby. Very good post Kenton.
Phil

[Ultimatewingchun]

I found the following in a German discussion forum:

"It seems to me that fighting has become in Wing Chun a Holy Grail with metaphysical proportions. It has become something that everybody is talking about, yet nobody knows or has ever seen. That's the reason why it doesn't matter in Wing Chun whether the training forges real fighters or not; it completely suffices when the training generates the believe that this is the best way to prepare oneself for a tough fight. The (supposedly) aggressive attitude towards fighting, even though fighting itself remains somewhat unreal, is one of the reasons for this phenomenon."

(Taken from http://www.wt4um.de/viewtopic.php?t=...er=asc&start=0)

I know that this topic has been discussed plenty of times, yet I find this post to describe rather accurately the problem prevailing in the Wing Chun scene. Robotic prearranged moves in drills that are chewed over and over 'til exhaustion + believe in an instructor who has never fought competitively to do a reality check on his real skills = Present state of Wing Chun.

***WHICH IS WHY I've just got to laugh whenever somebody comes on this forum and tries to put down the value of frequent, real, spontaneous, hard contact sparring - with protective gear and thin, semi-fingerless gloves to protect against injuries.

[Edmund]

I thought there were a bazillion clips of German WT guys punching each others lights out with a bit of protective gear.

Not that I liked it that much but you couldn't call it a prearranged drill.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I don't think I made myself clear enough, Edmund...I wasn't criticizing Buddha_Fist's opening post - I was praising it!

[Edmund]

Maybe I'm not understanding what Buddha_Fist is getting at but I thought he was criticizing WC people (esp. German) for just doing drills rather than sparring.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I thought he was just talking about the problem of wing chun robotic moves training in general - but not pointing a finger at the Germans in particular.

[Edmund]

In that case, I believe I'm an idiot.

[Buddha_Fist]

I thought he was just talking about the problem of wing chun robotic moves training in general - but not pointing a finger at the Germans in particular.

Yep. That was the point. There may well be good exceptions, but the general state of Wing Chun is quite sad. And the problem was quite well described a few posts earlier with 2 words: false confidence.

[tansaujosh]

this is why in my class our sifu teaches us not only wing chun, but basic boxing, muay thai and techniques and shaloin fitness training. this shows me how all fighters are becuase alot of arts derive form each other it also lets me see how the other fighters think.