What actually does beat a grappler?

[paradoxbox]

Most pressure point attacks are not meant to be used as the bread of an attack, they're more like the butter, if you get what I mean.. They usually don't work on enraged opponents, but they work great on subduing people who have already lost (and accept their defeat) and people who aren't expecting them.

That being said I wonder if those who doubt the effectiveness of eye gouges and eye scratching have ever been in more than a schoolyard scrap or possibly drunken haymaker brawl. They're your eyes buddy, you've got 2 of em and if they get gouged out you're going to regret it.. They don't grow back. You stick your fingers in someones eyes and 100% of the people you're fighting will do the same thing, eyes scrunched up, usually with the head back and to the side, even if they keep flailing at you...

It's not hard to hit someone in the eyes hard enough to blind them for a while, even if they're a charging 400 pound hulk sumo wrestler.. It's a really nasty feeling, like being hit by a hard boxers punch in the face. But it doesn't take much effort to do it. If you can reach their head, you can hit their eyes. And you can't train your eyes to take damage like you can on most other places of your body. I definately wouldn't call it a low percentage move. It's probably the highest percentage thing you could ever do with your hands in a fight. Girls have an advantage of long nails for gouging. But you have to weigh the concequences, is the threat you face to your safety worth blinding a person possibly permanently. Usually the answer is no. I think someone else in this thread mentioned the eyeball pressure thing he used in a fight.. It's a good example of what just a little pressure can do.. It's not a nice feeling. Actually tearing someones eyeball out, well it's disgusting but extremely easy to do, I've seen a person get hit by a baseball and their eye popped out. Doesn't take much.

>you're fighting - why keep your hands low?<
Who's to say you're fighting already? Could be you just see a guy that looks like he might want a piece of you. And your hands don't need to be low. They just need to be covering your midsection. Having your arms up at neck height (boxing height) against a grapler is risky, if they get ahold of your arms you're going to have a hard time getting away from them when your arms are that high. You have more options when things are low or at mid level. Having them at mid level also gives you the advantage if someone tries to perform kumiuchi on you to throw you or just jerk you around (lapel & sleeve grab, or more common in bar fights just a double collar grab). You have an instant shoulder lock available to you if they try it. Wrap your arm around theirs, step back with the trailing leg then kick their feet out from under em as their shoulder locks up.. Couldn't do that if standing square, you'd run out of time and the positioning would be all wrong.

>depends on the grab... <
By standing at a 45 degree angle to a person you're only giving them 1 side to grab. If they try to grab the other side of you they'll overextend and they're easy to throw or armbar. By being at a 45 degree angle you can also move in any direction faster than you can in a square stance, and less of your body will be where he was trying to grab or takedown in the first place. This ties in with keeping your hands low, sometimes someone might actually try to grab your leading arm for a throw or lock. Big mistake if you're standing 45 degrees toward them. If you're a good kicker it's a good angle to be at to drive into them.

>or simply learn how to lift the lead leg out of the sweeping legs way. Unless they are in deep (as in attempting a throw like tani otoshi) this will work fine.<

If they're in this close already and throwing you, they probably have you not only for a sweep but they have almost all your weight on their hip, whether or not you jump out of the way of their legs you're getting thrown. Everyone should learn a few backflip escapes even if it never helps them in fighting, it's a good skill to have if you ever fall backwards off a roof or some other place. At least with a backflip escape you put yourself outside their range for another throw, when you jump over their leg you're not a lot better off than you were before they tried to sweep you. Jumping to avoid a sweep is obviously the better solution but if the guy has any kind of control of your balance, jumping isn't going to do much for you. Maybe you'll get lucky and land on his leg and break it. Unlikely though. With the backflips you can use the momentum of the throw to land yourself back on your feet.

If you are dodging some guys sweeps from a distance while he's holding onto you, you've already screwed up enough. The downfall of judo is no standing armlocks. Sweeps are useless unless the bad guy is holding onto you somewhere, and if he's holding onto you and you're far away enough to jump over his legs, you ought to have cracked his elbow by now.. If he's in closer you need to examine alternatives.

[Reggie1]

Who's to say you're fighting already? Could be you just see a guy that looks like he might want a piece of you. And your hands don't need to be low. They just need to be covering your midsection. Having your arms up at neck height (boxing height) against a grapler is risky, if they get ahold of your arms you're going to have a hard time getting away from them when your arms are that high. You have more options when things are low or at mid level. Having them at mid level also gives you the advantage if someone tries to perform kumiuchi on you to throw you or just jerk you around (lapel & sleeve grab, or more common in bar fights just a double collar grab).

That sounds like a lot of theoretical stuff.

#1--How do you know this guy's a grappler? If you're about to get in a fight w/ a stranger it's probably not safe to assume anything.
#2--You should protect your head at all times. I'd guess that many grapplers out there would be smart enough to punch you in the face if your hands are low. Plus, any grappler who has cross trained/has an interest in MMA-type fighting knows about using punches to set up a takedown.
#3--You still have a lot of options with your hands up. Your elbows are still down protection your midsection and you can still sprawl from this position. Plus it also allows the elbow to the back / back of neck / head if you are fighting dirty.

[FatherDog]

Oh, sorry guys didn't know that this was an elitist thread. Sorta thought it was open for all to discuss. Won't happen again. LOL.....

Not paying much heed to the advice of people who have never sparred with experienced grapplers on "how to beat a grappler" isn't being elitist; it's being sensible.

[unkokusai]

Everyone should learn a few backflip escapes even if it never helps them in fighting, it's a good skill to have if you ever fall backwards off a roof or some other place. At least with a backflip escape you put yourself outside their range for another throw, when you jump over their leg you're not a lot better off than you were before they tried to sweep you. Jumping to avoid a sweep is obviously the better solution but if the guy has any kind of control of your balance, jumping isn't going to do much for you. Maybe you'll get lucky and land on his leg and break it. Unlikely though. With the backflips you can use the momentum of the throw to land yourself back on your feet.

If you are dodging some guys sweeps from a distance while he's holding onto you, you've already screwed up enough. The downfall of judo is no standing armlocks. Sweeps are useless unless the bad guy is holding onto you somewhere, and if he's holding onto you and you're far away enough to jump over his legs, you ought to have cracked his elbow by now.. If he's in closer you need to examine alternatives.

"backflip escapes"?

"unless the bad guy is holding onto you"?

[SevenStar]

That being said I wonder if those who doubt the effectiveness of eye gouges and eye scratching have ever been in more than a schoolyard scrap or possibly drunken haymaker brawl. They're your eyes buddy, you've got 2 of em and if they get gouged out you're going to regret it.. They don't grow back. You stick your fingers in someones eyes and 100% of the people you're fighting will do the same thing, eyes scrunched up, usually with the head back and to the side, even if they keep flailing at you...

It's not hard to hit someone in the eyes hard enough to blind them for a while, even if they're a charging 400 pound hulk sumo wrestler.. It's a really nasty feeling, like being hit by a hard boxers punch in the face. But it doesn't take much effort to do it. If you can reach their head, you can hit their eyes. And you can't train your eyes to take damage like you can on most other places of your body. I definately wouldn't call it a low percentage move. It's probably the highest percentage thing you could ever do with your hands in a fight. Girls have an advantage of long nails for gouging. But you have to weigh the concequences, is the threat you face to your safety worth blinding a person possibly permanently. Usually the answer is no. I think someone else in this thread mentioned the eyeball pressure thing he used in a fight.. It's a good example of what just a little pressure can do.. It's not a nice feeling. Actually tearing someones eyeball out, well it's disgusting but extremely easy to do, I've seen a person get hit by a baseball and their eye popped out. Doesn't take much.

gouging is not high percentage. Gouging would actually be easier to do in a grappling situation, because you have the person's limbs and body under control. Not all girls have long nails. Notice that chief fox was in a grappling situation when he applied the gouge.

Having your arms up at neck height (boxing height) against a grapler is risky, if they get ahold of your arms you're going to have a hard time getting away from them when your arms are that high.

no...if the grappler is in that close to you, you are already in the dangerzone anyway. Any fighter worth his salt will tell you that your hands need to be raised. you need something to protect your face. With MMA guys, what usually precedes a takedown? strikes. Strike high and shoot low. if your hands are down, his strikes may catch you.

You have more options when things are low or at mid level. Having them at mid level also gives you the advantage if someone tries to perform kumiuchi on you to throw you or just jerk you around (lapel & sleeve grab, or more common in bar fights just a double collar grab). You have an instant shoulder lock available to you if they try it. Wrap your arm around theirs, step back with the trailing leg then kick their feet out from under em as their shoulder locks up.. Couldn't do that if standing square, you'd run out of time and the positioning would be all wrong.

so what? t step into them and throw o uchi gari. There are endless things you can do...what ifs are pointless though, so I won't get into that any further.

By standing at a 45 degree angle to a person you're only giving them 1 side to grab. If they try to grab the other side of you they'll overextend and they're easy to throw or armbar.

my favorite grip for harai goshi is done by grabbing one arm and wrapping my other arm around his waist. By standing 45 degrees, you are making that grip easier for me. Like I said, what ifs are endless and pointless.

If they're in this close already and throwing you, they probably have you not only for a sweep but they have almost all your weight on their hip, whether or not you jump out of the way of their legs you're getting thrown.

nope, I do it all the time. Stepping out is a very common escape to many throws and sweeps. Just like anything else, it's all in the timing.

The downfall of judo is no standing armlocks. Sweeps are useless unless the bad guy is holding onto you somewhere, and if he's holding onto you and you're far away enough to jump over his legs, you ought to have cracked his elbow by now.. If he's in closer you need to examine alternatives.

standing arm locks suck, IMO. To sweep, he doesn't havae to be holding onto you - you only need to have a hold on him. I never said jump over his legs - I said step. Big difference.

[Knifefighter]

The square stance is the best defensive stance to use if you do not want to be taken down in a pure grappling situation. It is much easier to take someone down who is in a staggered stance.

The staggered stance is preferrable if you are in a street or MMA situation.

Keeping your hands down or at mid level is completely stupid in any situation, whether it is street, MMA, or pure grappling.

Almost all standing arm locks are pretty useless against someone who has half a clue. That's why you will almost never see standing arm lock finishes in any MMA or grappling competition.

[Knifefighter]

That being said I wonder if those who doubt the effectiveness of eye gouges and eye scratching have ever been in more than a schoolyard scrap or possibly drunken haymaker brawl.

I've taken hard shots to the eyes on two separate occasions. One of those involved the thumb going into the eye socket. The other one resulted in loss of sight in the affected eye for about a day. Neither of those stopped me from continuing to fight.

[unkokusai]

The square stance is the best defensive stance to use if you do not want to be taken down in a pure grappling situation. It is much easier to take someone down who is in a staggered stance.
.

Ah...................no.

[Knifefighter]

Seven*: part of the of the trick in using the hand sweep is that they must be close and shooting for the front leg. But the front leg becomes the back leg while thier arms are deflected to the side or trapped.

Then these people don't know how to do a single leg attack. The single leg setup requires that you be putting your weight on your front foot. This prevents your front leg from moving and becoming your back leg.

[Knifefighter]

Ah...................no.

unkokusai-
How much and what kind of grappling experience do you have?

[unkokusai]

unkokusai-
How much and what kind of grappling experience do you have?

I have about 29 years of wrestling experience. And you?

[Knifefighter]

4 years high school folkstyle wrestling.
4 years college folkstyle and freestyle wrestling.
12 years Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and submission grappling.

What type of competitions have you done?

[unkokusai]

4 years high school folkstyle wrestling.
4 years college folkstyle and freestyle wrestling.
12 years Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and submission grappling.

What type of competitions have you done?

Um..........wrestling competitions.


What exactly are you looking for?


I was pretty successful in the old college days, have kept with it all along, and I have wrestled overseas as well.

Do I meet your criteria yet? Any other questions? Need more details?

[Becca]

Then these people don't know how to do a single leg attack. The single leg setup requires that you be putting your weight on your front foot. This prevents your front leg from moving and becoming your back leg.

That is where the kung fu style transitions come in. Remember, what I was describing ain't a grappling move. It's an anti grappling move from a kung fu style. I won't tell you what you do wrong with your wresting, if you don't correct my kung fu.

Well, some people on this board I will pay attention to. But to paraphrase FatherDog, not carring two cents for the oppinion of the clueless on the subject is common sence...

[unkokusai]

It's an anti grappling move

There's no such animal.