Kind of ironic with that type of grammar you are questioning someone else's mental abilities. Maybe YOU'RE the one who is RETARDED and stupid?Originally Posted by Green Cloud
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Kind of ironic with that type of grammar you are questioning someone else's mental abilities. Maybe YOU'RE the one who is RETARDED and stupid?
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No, downward strikes are almost never a deciding factor in whether on not a takedown is successful and do very little damage. A good sprawl with knees to the head is a much better approach for the defender.
No, it has to be both back/lateral and knees. Going in will almost always lead to the takedown, unless you have a grappling background. The spine/neck down attack almost never works.
The solar plexus is open to knees if the grappler doesn't defend properly. Uppercuts can sometimes land, also.
周洪龍 金山鴻勝武舘 - 鴻勝佛家正宗
Knife fighter,
Don't turn your attack on me, but why are you insulting the man and his grammar?
I don't know much about him, but i get the feeling by his last name that he may speak more the just english. and that could affect someone's grammar.
BUT, this is the wrong place for the criticism of someone's grammar. this is no academic setting. people aren't submitting thesis'seseeseessss and such. so i don't see the need to attack the man personally. if you don't agree with him then stay on topic and leave the personal attacks out of it.
this is a pretty loose place with a good amount of freedom of speech, unlike some of the other forums where they attack you because you use all lower case letters.
to me, how petty can you get when you have nothing else to insult? The moment i saw them attack me because of that, i decided to jump ship and come running back here.
Go ahead and argue with Green Cloud, he's a big boy and can take it. but leave the personal insults out. please.
and as i've asked "Don't turn your attack towards me, there's no problem here."
HSK
Last edited by hskwarrior; 01-19-2006 at 11:26 AM.
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I like how tuna fish is tring to say martial arts/kung fu is useless. when mma
have to come from somewhere. Oh' and tuna most people cross train but choose to perfect a single style to make it perfect. also you sound like a 10 year old, tring to pick fights with people who know your wrong which is why they ignore you.
PS: your going to be very lonely under the bridge
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He started a conversation (although it was more a dig towards all of us practicioners) and then left us to duke it out.
In his first few posts, he stated that the worst thing for Traditional Kung-Fu was the MMA competitions. I tend to disagree. I think it was one of the best things for Traditional Kung-Fu. I think it was a great thing to see, because it's what the great Bruce Lee was professing to all along: crosstrain and real-time action.
Unforunately, even in my past martial arts schools that I have been through, many techniques were used on a dead opponent, unlike the resisting opponents that are in the ring trying to mash you.
Although there may be rules in these MMA comps, I still think that they are a great testing ground for someone's skills. Even though I don't plan to compete at this time in my life...it has opened up doors for me. I've been able to get together with other practicioners of other arts and styles, including groundfighting and get totally manhandled. The idea of crosstraining has opened the minds of many people, including myself.
Now, many people out there are still doing drills with their style vs. their style and with non-resisting opponents. I personally don't think this is good, but to each their own.
So, Bruce Lee and MMA aren't so new. They just come around again and again to remind us of what really works and what doesn't: simplicity. Style vs. Style was a great (and still is at times) marketing tool and that's it. Just like Religion vs. Religion creates tension, conflict and bickering...so does this Style vs. Style BS.
Martial arts are all-encompasing. Too bad Tuna Fish left. Maybe he'll come back and we can have a civilized conversation.
All the best,
Kenton
An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory. Friedrich Engels
Registered User
Ok, so let's see,
The thread was started by a really bad troll, who was eventually banned because he was a complete moron. It sucks, but sometimes this happens.
Since the the conversation has degraded in a way that I didn't know was possible,
I'd like to take a quick look at some of the arguments that have been made:
1. "Kung Fu Sucks. Only MMA works." (Originally posted by Tuna Fish)
2. "I train in ultra deadly techniques, like poking people in the eyes, and twisting their nuts. So MMA is unnecessary."
And the usual counter arguments... "If you've never done it before, you don't know if it works.", "People with high pain thresholds...", "How can you poke me in the eye if you can't even punch me in the face" etc.
3. "My style aims to end the fight as quickly as possible." (ok, what f'n art doesn't? I don't think I've ever heard someone say "I want to drag this fight out for as long as possible")
4. "Don't take this the wrong way, but you sound like a wuss." (this was just funny)
5. "I can see your point about grappling training being necessary, but because I don't want concede that chinese martial arts aren't perfect, I'm going to make the argument that Juuutsu is chinese, and all kung fu is MMA."
6. "The first time anyone ever wrestled was at the olympics, therefore jujutsu was greek before it was chinese."
7. Somehow, "Grappling training is a good idea" has been interpreted as "Kung fu sucks". I'm not sure how this works.
8. Most grapplers are stupid. (WTF? Seriously.)
9. Lots of claims about history, some with stated sources, many without. Come on now. If you don't have a verifiable source that you can share with people, you shouldn't be making these arguments, and you shouldn't be stating them as FACT.
10. Flame Flame Flame Flame Flame.
1999, 2000, 2001, and 2002 are on a conference call discussing what they need to do to get their threads back.
Registered User
No clue what you're talking about. Anyway the Kuki family is one of the older families of Japan with written records going back to the 1330's. Currently the Kuki family maintains a significant number of shinto shrines which happen to be closely connected (philosophically) to the kukishin martial arts.
Here is some info relating to amatsu tatara and its connection with areas far beyond the borders of Japan. As I said before nothing is proveable but the fact that this document exists (and was written hundreds of years ago) indicates something similar probably occured, even if it's different from the version of events written here.
----
Amatsu means Heaven or Nature. Tatara means the highest secret teaching system of Martial Arts and original Shintoism spirit. The Amatsu Tatara Hibumi (secret scrolls) are special scrolls about all Martial Arts, Spiritualism and Humanism. These were written about 700 BC by the King of Mima as the history of Japan.
Tatara Isuzu Hime-no-Mikoto was given these scrolls. She then married the first emperor Jinmu and gave these scrolls to the Ohtomo, Nakatomi and Mononobe families (families loyal to the Emperor). In about 700 BC (or 500 BC, or 600 BC), The King Mima drifted from the ancient Babylonia Caldia Kingdom to Japan with three attendants and they lived on Miwayama mountain (Nara Area). He formed a good friendship with the chieftain of Japan Amaterasu Ohmikami and made great efforts in controlling Japan. This is why he was made a Kunitsu Omi Muraji (Minister). King Mima brought the special Kubikazari (necklace) which was made of 72 Magatama (jewels). The Kubikazari was not only for just fashion which was the symbol of a King. It had very important meaning and was used for fortunetelling as well. King Mima presented it to Amaterasu.
Hiboko-no-Mikoto followed King Mima to Japan. Hiboko was a great Shaman and brought Tokusano Kandakara (ten kinds of Gods treasures) of Shikin. Shikin means Rei-jutsu (spiritual techniques by truth consciousness.).
In 500 BC or 550 BC, several hundred Buddhist Vader people of the Malay race attacked Japan and fought the emperors army of Miwayama. The emperor's army fought and defeated them. From the battle the Japanese emperor's army designed weapons, created how to use them, and also how to win (strategies). From that time until about 10 AD a special scroll was written; the Amatsu Tatara Hibumi-no-Ikkan (original main secret scroll of the Amatsu Tatara) which includes all special techniques, philosophies, Tenmon (heavens things), Chimon (earth things) and others.
----
I'm unsure of what 'Caldia' refers to and I don't have access to who could have been a king or royalty in Babylon at that period of time. From what I understand this story exists not only in the amatsu tatara scrolls but also in the Kuki Bunsho Kaisetsu, a secret book for priests.
Again, unverifiable but given the fact that many explorers and conquerers wanted to get to China, it seems probable that a great deal of martial knowledge was passed from west to east. That's not to say knowledge did not already exist in the far east, but a melting pot of knowledge was created.
Last edited by paradoxbox; 01-19-2006 at 12:44 PM.
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That one video that Tuna Fish posted about with that 15 year veteran of Kung Fu is this gentleman:
http://www.jasondelucia.com/jason_delucias_homepage.htm
If you look at his background, you will see that after the sparring match with Royce Gracie, he took to high road and has since been in the MMA circuit (fighting people such as Royce again and Bas Rutten.) He researched where this ground-fighting came from and learned to make his 5 Animal Kung-Fu work in different situations.
Good on 'em.
All the best,
Kenton Sefcik
An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory. Friedrich Engels
I am my teachers student
Hey mat I figured you would be posting a thread not really surprised since, obviously you are the spokesman for the rest of these guys.
First of all I studied hakuryu jiu jitsu and also goshin budo jiujitsu. for aproximatly 7 years and studied other non classical styles for 5 more years, I have been involved with cma for 30 years, as far as your wing chun exp.
Ask any of william chungs guys about how good my trapping abilities are since I've touched hands with most of them
ask Phil redmond exuse my spelling but he is a member of this forum and can verify how good I am since he along with his training bros have trapped with me. Go ahead ask. he's on the forum, mabee we can starta new thread how good is Sifu Kaparos.
As far as my info look it up. Go to jiu-jitsu.net/history.shtml.
I'm great at kung fu and great at grappling so I fell that I am an authority on both of them.
Here is my problem, I've tried to adress certain issues with certain people, but different people come out of the wood works.
Once again I have maintaned a respectful level of conduct giving you guys facts, That you can find either on line or encyclopidias.
And as far as my kung fu abbilities are concerned there are several people on this forum that know my rep. and can verify my credentials. All I've seen so far is abunch of guys ganging up on me all at the same time all at once.
Go ahead ask Phil he is on the site or how about sifu serrsa. he is a senior guy in the William chung camp.
As far as the Ninja scrolls come on, I'm talking about simple american academics.
I guess what happens when someone has a valid point it turns into a gang bang.
Is wrong to pay homage to the father of martial arts( kung Fu).
After all this is kung fu magazine. I have given you guys reputable sources and peole that can attest to.
As far as your coments ( I don't know where morons with blind prejudice incable of holding Civil conversation are doing on this forum) Are you kiding me have you read all the threads. I've conducted my self like a gentleman and provided info to the best of my abilities.
Every one else with the exeption of Merryprakster guy who I was having a debate with originaly. Responded with snive coments, not intelegent debate wich was my original intent. Here's the deal I out rank you in kung fu and in Jiu jitsu as anyone that knows me on this forum. As far as my fighting is concerned the same goes.
I must admit you did provided some intelegent insight but you weren't very objective and I'm a little confused about that because I thought you were a moderate.
Anyway Greencloud.net that's my site my house you guys are all invited to come meet me in person and discuss this face to face.
All I've seen on this site is children trying to act like men. Give me a break, I can't undrstand why you all get so angry when I'm just trying to conduct a debate, and Tuna fish was kicked off. Give me a break.
I'm done with this surperfluess thread because like I said no one is my intelectual equal, and when It comes to skill well, most of these guys on this thread couldn't hold a candle to me.
Once again I repeat this to you that's why a reputable Sifu like Doc fei wong, stopped debating on this forum.
I am my teachers student
Hey mat I figured you would be posting a thread not really surprised since, obviously you are the spokesman for the rest of these guys.
First of all I studied hakuryu jiu jitsu and also goshin budo jiujitsu. for aproximatly 7 years and studied other non classical styles for 5 more years, I have been involved with cma for 30 years, as far as your wing chun exp.
Ask any of william chungs guys about how good my trapping abilities are since I've touched hands with most of them
ask Phil redmond exuse my spelling but he is a member of this forum and can verify how good I am since he along with his training bros have trapped with me. Go ahead ask. he's on the forum, mabee we can starta new thread how good is Sifu Kaparos.
As far as my info look it up. Go to jiu-jitsu.net/history.shtml.
I'm great at kung fu and great at grappling so I fell that I am an authority on both of them.
Here is my problem, I've tried to adress certain issues with certain people, but different people come out of the wood works.
Once again I have maintaned a respectful level of conduct giving you guys facts, That you can find either on line or encyclopidias.
And as far as my kung fu abbilities are concerned there are several people on this forum that know my rep. and can verify my credentials. All I've seen so far is abunch of guys ganging up on me all at the same time all at once.
Go ahead ask Phil he is on the site or how about sifu serrsa. he is a senior guy in the William chung camp.
As far as the Ninja scrolls come on, I'm talking about simple american academics.
I guess what happens when someone has a valid point it turns into a gang bang.
Is wrong to pay homage to the father of martial arts( kung Fu).
After all this is kung fu magazine. I have given you guys reputable sources and peole that can attest to.
As far as your coments ( I don't know where morons with blind prejudice incable of holding Civil conversation are doing on this forum) Are you kiding me have you read all the threads. I've conducted my self like a gentleman and provided info to the best of my abilities.
Every one else with the exeption of Merryprakster guy who I was having a debate with originaly. Responded with snive coments, not intelegent debate wich was my original intent. Here's the deal I out rank you in kung fu and in Jiu jitsu as anyone that knows me on this forum. As far as my fighting is concerned the same goes.
I must admit you did provided some intelegent insight but you weren't very objective and I'm a little confused about that because I thought you were a moderate.
Anyway Greencloud.net that's my site my house you guys are all invited to come meet me in person and discuss this face to face.
All I've seen on this site is children trying to act like men. Give me a break, I can't undrstand why you all get so angry when I'm just trying to conduct a debate, and Tuna fish was kicked off. Give me a break.
I'm done with this surperfluess thread because like I said no one is my intelectual equal, and when It comes to skill well, most of these guys on this thread couldn't hold a candle to me.
Once again I repeat this to you that's why a reputable Sifu like Doc fei wong, stopped debating on this forum.
god of war
Where it did / didn't come from is irrelevant. All that matters is what it is now. What it is now is not kung fu.
i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.
-Charles Manson
I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.
- Shonie Carter
Furthr
I'm sorry Green Cloud,
I was sort of assuming the "Epic of Gilgamesh," wherein Gilgamesh and Enkidu wrestle, was what was called "common knowledge" and didn't need citation. Further, it's not some sort of "caveman humping." Rather, it details that Gilgamesh threw Enkidu to the ground, ending the match. The story is considered the oldest story ever told. It is at the very least, probably the oldest story ever written down, since they were written in cuneiform on clay tablets.
Where's the "so what?" in this? Well, the so what is that first, the story is undoubtedly older than when it was written down - about 5000 years ago. Secondly, it suggests that wrestling was a common form of personal combat in that the story did not have to explain what wrestling was. This suggests that the audience was familiar with it. Finally, the fact that the match ended when Gilgamesh threw Enkidu to the ground, indicates that wrestling was, in fact, so well established that there were common rules of engagement and agreement over what constituted victory.
Now, even if Chinese wrestling is older, am I to believe that vibrant trade was occuring between these civilizations, so much so that somebody imported it and that's how the sumerians got wrestling? I don't think that was the case, and historical evidence suggests it certainly was not.
Regardless of what you may or may not feel about the validity of Samoan arts or cavemen grappling, a simple fact of human existence is that conflict has been part of it for millenia. As humans, we pass information to other humans in our "tribe." Surely, some of that information would be related to fighting, and "systems" would develop over time. This is what I mean by convergent evolution. Two or more separate, distinct groups of people develop solution sets to the problem of combat.
In the face of that, I don't think its safe to start talking about one place or style as the "mother" of MA. For instance, there are indigenous stick fighting systems in Africa, that I am pretty sure have nothing to do with Chinese systems. I refer you back to the Sumo/Cornish wrestling example as well (they have nothing to do with each other).
Now, I don't doubt that Chinese arts had an influence on Japanese arts, and I'm certainly betting that several have Chinese origins. However, I don't think the Japanese didn't have fighting before the Chinese got there. And if they had fighting, they had some sort of system of teaching, or else it would be impossible to field soldiers, body guards, etc.
Regarding MA and history, I'm sorry, but MA is full of more inaccuracy, myth and outright lies than just about any other subject I can think of. I am always HIGHLY skeptical of any MA history (with the exception of the general history of Judo - vice apocryphal stories about it -, which is extremely well documented). Unlike most history, there is no accepted ground truth, nor even "camps of thought," in general. You can read 10 different authors and get 10 different answers to the same question. One guy will tell you x style came from y and another will tell you that y came from x, and then some other guy will tell you that 'z' is really the parent. sigh....
I tend to ask myself what seems reasonable, instead, and take all the histories with a grain of salt.
If you are curious about Kalari, there's a ton of stuff on the web. Many argue that Kalari was the father/mother of TCMA! I am more inclined to believe, as I have already stated, that there was convergent evolution. People everywhere have needed to fight, and needed to fight effectively. That means the knowledge must be transmitted from person to person, and that leads to the development of a system (as opposed to an individual style).
Last edited by Merryprankster; 01-19-2006 at 05:14 PM.
"In the world of martial arts, respect is often a given. In the real world, it must be earned."
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. "--Bertrand Russell
"Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends of every country save their own. "--Benjamin Disraeli
"A conservative government is an organised hypocrisy."--Benjamin Disraeli
Cha Wang
Thanks for the tips Knifefighter.
In one of the videos posted by TunaTown (as in taking the skin boat to tuna town), was the deluca vid.
He got Royce in a headlock, I believe its called the guillotine? Royce worked his ribs till he let go. That seemed like an exceptional escape, and that Deluca could have done more with that hold. Is that a fair comment, or wishful thinking?
My experience is that that hold is punishing in the stand up with a lift, and reasonably easy to get when fighters shoot on you.
Seeing deluca get it, then get rolled and reversed got me thinking.
Registered User
Definitely wishful thinking. Delucia's only option from there was escape. Royce was mounted on Delucia, so offensive attacks would not work for Delucia from there. The guillotine from the position that Delucia was in was completely worthless... very easy to escape. That is why knowledge of positioning on the ground is paramount. That same guillotine would have been much more dangerous if Royce was in Delucia's guard.
Registered User
What he did was train BJJ at the Torrance academy after his first match with Royce.
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