What truely works? what doesnt? (mma)

[unkokusai]

With the exeption of a few the majority of the guys on this thread are not worth it. There just haters. .

That's interesting. 'Haters' of what?

[unkokusai]

bucko, I gave a specific example of a specific martial art which you are not included in. You've never heard of it and you will never know much about it, so who are you or any other people in here to talk about martial arts which frankly you know nothing about.**.

You post that and then protest against being flamed? .......Ok.

[unkokusai]

"how about listing your grappling credentials?"

Don't need to

.....NEXT!

[unkokusai]

I'm great at kung fu and great at grappling so I fell that I am an authority on both of them.

I have maintaned a respectful level of conduct

Here's the deal I out rank you in kung fu and in Jiu jitsu as anyone that knows me on this forum. As far as my fighting is concerned the same goes.


All I've seen on this site is children trying to act like men.


I'm done with this surperfluess thread because like I said no one is my intelectual equal, and when It comes to skill well, most of these guys on this thread couldn't hold a candle to me..

...........good lord. The Dean of Clown College is in town!

[unkokusai]

I could go on... but you wouldn't listen which I suspect is why wise men like Unkokusai stick to one-liners.

Yo~ wakata na, kono hito!

[SimonM]

Oh, by the by, I did visit the site you posted paradoxbox. I'm nothing if not thorough when I research. Under the link of "The Secret Documents of the Kukis" there is a total of one reference to "Amaterasu Tatara". This is in relation to a work writen by Takamatsu Chosui. Since this man was alive in the 1940s this is not a particularly credible pre-history.

Just because I practice Chinese Martial arts please don't assume I am entirely ignorant with regards to Japan, their history and their myths. It is a foolish assumption to do so.

[Mr Punch]

In the interests of offering you an olive branch, since you seem to have taken everything I said as (a) some kind of personal insult and (b) in the worst way possible, I will attempt, just one more time to explain my position.

Summary (read my posts in order and this is supported):

1) I agreed with you about Kung Fu being MMA.

2) I stated that if you (generic 'you', not 'you, Green Cloud, respected Sifu, scholar and gentleman') are doing a kung fu style that has supposedly remained pure for any prolonged period of time, you will probably lose to someone who has a more rounded, evolved and mixed set of fighting skill-sets. Without attacking 'grapplers' in any way - as I'm not even talking specifically about grappling, would you agree or disagree with this statement?!

3) Your historical facts are (a) not facts and (b) not adequately substantiated (saying you read an encyclopedia is no evidence) and (c) WRONG! I suggested that your 'knowledge' of MA history, especially relating to Japanese MA is not particularly your strong point.

4) It doesn't matter that there was some (very arguable as to how much) influence of Chinese arts on Japanese because those Japanese arts evolved and have been distinct from the Chinese ones for a long time.

Everything else I said was intended to back up these points, and until you started insulting my intellectual level I don't think you'll find anything particularly rude in my posts.
Further in relation to 2) above, you automatically supposed I was siding with 'grapplers', and that I am some kind of ringleader of a 'gang-bang' (your gentlemanly expression, not mine). I can assure you that I have only ever 'met' the people known here as Knifefighter, Unkokusai, SevenStar etc or 'spoken to' them as a function of this board, they all have quite different opinions of many things to me, and I am in no way 'their' ringleader. I can also attest that they know a hell of a lot more about grappling than I do, so I would in no way posit myself as a ringleader even if I did know them.

I can further state that I know that they know more than me because of the things they say, not because of who they say they are. We have Jules's and possibly Ross's backing as to who you are, but that doesn't escape the fact that whereas Knifefighter, Unkokusai and SevenStar often have civil discussions with people who disagree with them, and often prove by what they've said to be knowledgeable about their subjects, you are paranoid (in your talk of gangbangs and ringleaders and you perceived 'grapplers' conspiracies) and frequently inaccurate, for example by choosing to cite encyclopediae and to sneer at dojo scrolls (not some fairytale 'ninja scrolls' as you put it, but densho - scrolls of transmission, the meticulously written histories of the ryuha which are used by the people who write the encyclopediae you are reading) without telling us which encyclopediae, which pages etc, and without listening to dates which clearly point out the fallacy in what you are saying.

Therefore, (relating to 3 above) I can safely say that although I hold you no ill-will whatsoever, just because you are an experienced grappler and sifu, doesn't mean that you know what you're talking about on history. I'm an experienced forester, but that doesn't qualify me to talk about the history of forestry. Also just because you're an experienced this and that doesn't entitle you to any respect if you behave like an arse.

And frankly, you don't listen, you can't follow an argument and you contradict yourself.

Here are some specific examples:

I haven't insulted anyone.

Mat I often find that most grapplers are not my intelectual equals...I don't even know what you so called grapplers are doing on this forum.

(Contradiction)

(BTW, Then I said I was primarily a kung fu practitioner with as yet scant experience in grappling thus in now way representative of grapplers in general or any perceived grapplers gangbang on this board, to which you then started a ****ing contest stating you were my superior in every way: (not following the argument)
-----------

mat said kung fu styles are not grappling systems

which I can assume assume came as an answer to the previous post by SevenStar as I had said nothing of the sort (which I pointed out to you already in the next post)!

by today's standard, kung fu is not mma. the term mma denotes striking and ground grappling. The latter eliminates like 90% of kung fu schools from this definition.

(Again, you're not following the argument!)
-----------

How about karate yup from okinawa taught to the peasants by a monk from shaolin.

Bing-bong! Congratulations! One out of four!

(Agreeing with you)

Mat listen up in the 16th century it is a well known fact that shaolin boxing and found its way to Okinawa from China.

Guess you're arguing with yourself there. (Could this be... not following the argument?!)
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Keep in mind I never stated that Jiu jitsu came from china it,s definatly Japanese and refined over the years.

I have a question for you, where do you think jiu jitsu came from?? I'l anwere that for you it came from kung fu.

(shurely shome mishtake!)
-----------

et ****ing cetera.

Like I said, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Chinese arts influenced Japanese. Indeed, there is plenty of evidence to suggest Japanese people came from China and Korea maybe 3000 or so years ago, so arguably all of their culture comes from China and Korea.

My point was, it doesn't matter at all. They are now Japanese arts and many of them have been for approx 1000 years and have developed and evolved with the times, which is what kung fu also needs to do (and in some cases has done).

If you'd stop arguing with yourself, and wasting time misquoting unproven speculation from encyclopediae, and ignoring evidence from primary sources of as much validity as your Olympic records (eg the Kojiki and the Nihonshiki, and koryu densho - just because you don't know what these things mean it doesn't mean you should dismiss them as 'ninja scrolls' - YOU do some ****ing research)... you'd find we are not that far off agreeing!



Watch... I'm not coming back to answer you on this thread!
And if I were you, since you can't follow an argument, are insulting everybody etc etc, I'd take your own advice and not come back to the board! Though, personally, I don't mind if you stick around, you personally aren't gonna be hearing much from me.

[Mr Punch]

I agree with most of what you say, but...

And FWIW the term koryu as an official definition as a type of martial art only came into being in the mid-late 1800's. Back in the day, like for example 1520, everything was just bujutsu.

I don't think this is accurate. I can't remember my source and I don't have time to look it up, but I do think that there were already various delineations of bujutsu in those days, and that the term koryu was already in use in the 1500s to distinguish them from the newly established schools. Certainly by Musashi's time there were different names of schools. and styles of fighting.

And thanks for the info on the Kuki family archives... but I'd also be a little careful of getting all of your source material from one koryu family's research and scrolls... the koryu are notorious for embellishing their own histories and making spurious claims like those linking them to the Kojiki and its contents and don't forget the Kojiki itself is a mythology as much as a history esp in its stories of the migrations and formation of the islands.

[Ray Pina]

no comment???

i guess i would be alittle upset too if i trained all my life in snake fist kung-fu only to get beat down by some kid with 3 months of BJJ training.

Welcome to the board tuna fish.

Were do you live? Not only do I study Kung Fu, I study internal kung fu and am in need for a match.

[CoRWiN]

This thread started as a hater thread and clearly it hasn't changed course. Bad Joo Joo. Let's just let this one die a quiet death. As if a forum thread could discover what TRUELY worked. The answer is it all works. Just need enough practice and the right circumstances. If we want to make this a bit more logical let's debate about certain criteria. Let's say what techiniques would be best against a guy of such and such background in such and such circumstance. Stop the flaming

Me Love Kung-Fu Long Time!!

[splinter]

Why do I keep looking at this thread?

It's like a train wreck. I'm disgusted everytime I look, but I can't help it.

Note: There are some very well thought out posts here, and I applaude the people who have had the patience to write them, but aren't your heads getting swore from banging them agains the wall like that?

[Ray Pina]

These have become very predictable.....

The "traditionalists" who don't fight, never fight, say they could beat the well trained guy if he could only kick him in the balls or poke him in the eyes not realising that the other guy's targeting system can change too ..... and he strikes better, has more agression and experience not being hit.

Then there's MMA-type guys who jump down the traditionalist's throats.... but they don't fight either. They learned to roll a little bit but don't like to get hit. Or their school doesn't push the fact that fights might end on the ground often enough but they rarely start there .... you need to handle a grown man throwing fists and elbows at your face.

For every 20 of the above type (probably more) there is someone who does train hard, does test their stuff out .... regretably their words often carry the same weight as the other two, sometimes less -- because the other two are well versed on the "supposed to" and all the generally accepeted dogmas spewed in martial media and websites.

[Green Cloud]

[QUOTE=Mat]In the interests of offering you an olive branch, since you seem to have taken everything I said as (a) some kind of personal insult and (b) in the worst way possible, I will attempt, just one more time to explain my position.

Summary (read my posts in order and this is supported):

1) I agreed with you about Kung Fu being MMA.

2) I stated that if you (generic 'you', not 'you, Green Cloud, respected Sifu, scholar and gentleman') are doing a kung fu style that has supposedly remained pure for any prolonged period of time, you will probably lose to someone who has a more rounded, evolved and mixed set of fighting skill-sets. Without attacking 'grapplers' in any way - as I'm not even talking specifically about grappling, would you agree or disagree with this statement?!

3) Your historical facts are (a) not facts and (b) not adequately substantiated (saying you read an encyclopedia is no evidence) and (c) WRONG! I suggested that your 'knowledge' of MA history, especially relating to Japanese MA is not particularly your strong point.

4) It doesn't matter that there was some (very arguable as to how much) influence of Chinese arts on Japanese because those Japanese arts evolved and have been distinct from the Chinese ones for a long time.

Everything else I said was intended to back up these points, and until you started insulting my intellectual level I don't think you'll find anything particularly rude in my posts.
Further in relation to 2) above, you automatically supposed I was siding with 'grapplers', and that I am some kind of ringleader of a 'gang-bang' (your gentlemanly expression, not mine). I can assure you that I have only ever 'met' the people known here as Knifefighter, Unkokusai, SevenStar etc or 'spoken to' them as a function of this board, they all have quite different opinions of many things to me, and I am in no way 'their' ringleader. I can also attest that they know a hell of a lot more about grappling than I do, so I would in no way posit myself as a ringleader even if I did know them.

I can further state that I know that they know more than me because of the things they say, not because of who they say they are. We have Jules's and possibly Ross's backing as to who you are, but that doesn't escape the fact that whereas Knifefighter, Unkokusai and SevenStar often have civil discussions with people who disagree with them, and often prove by what they've said to be knowledgeable about their subjects, you are paranoid (in your talk of gangbangs and ringleaders and you perceived 'grapplers' conspiracies) and frequently inaccurate, for example by choosing to cite encyclopediae and to sneer at dojo scrolls (not some fairytale 'ninja scrolls' as you put it, but densho - scrolls of transmission, the meticulously written histories of the ryuha which are used by the people who write the encyclopediae you are reading) without telling us which encyclopediae, which pages etc, and without listening to dates which clearly point out the fallacy in what you are saying.

Therefore, (relating to 3 above) I can safely say that although I hold you no ill-will whatsoever, just because you are an experienced grappler and sifu, doesn't mean that you know what you're talking about on history. I'm an experienced forester, but that doesn't qualify me to talk about the history of forestry. Also just because you're an experienced this and that doesn't entitle you to any respect if you behave like an arse.

And frankly, you don't listen, you can't follow an argument and you contradict yourself.

Here are some specific examples:



(Contradiction)

(BTW, Then I said I was primarily a kung fu practitioner with as yet scant experience in grappling thus in now way representative of grapplers in general or any perceived grapplers gangbang on this board, to which you then started a ****ing contest stating you were my superior in every way: (not following the argument)
-----------

which I can assume assume came as an answer to the previous post by SevenStar as I had said nothing of the sort (which I pointed out to you already in the next post)!
(Again, you're not following the argument!)
-----------

(Agreeing with you)
Guess you're arguing with yourself there. (Could this be... not following the argument?!)
----------



(shurely shome mishtake!)
-----------

et ****ing cetera.

Like I said, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that Chinese arts influenced Japanese. Indeed, there is plenty of evidence to suggest Japanese people came from China and Korea maybe 3000 or so years ago, so arguably all of their culture comes from China and Korea.

My point was, it doesn't matter at all. They are now Japanese arts and many of them have been for approx 1000 years and have developed and evolved with the times, which is what kung fu also needs to do (and in some cases has done).

If you'd stop arguing with yourself, and wasting time misquoting unproven speculation from encyclopediae, and ignoring evidence from primary sources of as much validity as your Olympic records (eg the Kojiki and the Nihonshiki, and koryu densho - just because you don't know what these things mean it doesn't mean you should dismiss them as 'ninja scrolls' - YOU do some ****ing research)... you'd find we are not that far off agreeing!



Watch... I'm not coming back to answer you on this thread!
And if I were you, since you can't follow an argument, are insulting everybody etc etc, I'd take your own advice and not come back to the board! Though, personally, I don't mind if you stick around, you personally aren't gonna be hearing much from me. [/QUOTE


Listen without contraversy this wouldnt be a good thread tell me it didn't get intresting real fast. This thread blew up real fast.

I'm not trying to be a wise guy, as I said originaly I was having a debate with merryprankster wich by the way handled things respectfully wich I instantly picked up on so I followed his example since that's the martial way.

Just read unkokusai's coments, one atack after the other no point no insight. Being human I fell to his level and then corrected my self. But I did have hard time responding to people when they were comming at me all at once.

At first I was pleased at the attention, even if it was hostile and one sided I have to admitt I got confuse real fast to whom I was talking to when people were jumping in left and right. Now normaly in the street I could handle being jumped all at once, but them again I am a profesional Martial artist. Not a typist

I dont spend that much time on the internet, usally I'm working

I do apologize for allowing myself to get sucked into the petty stuff. So if you choose to have a discussion with me have it. Mano E Mano on another thread but if it gets petty I'm out of there.

[lkfmdc]

There are CMA guys who practiced for:

- "health" and has no interest in fighting.
- "sport" and only want to win gold metal through tournament.
- "killing" and only care about saving life during life threaten situation.

Perhaps those three exist, there are also those who train what many call "sport" to test their skills for "killing"

Shuai Chiao has "sport"... in fact Master Chang did "sport" but was also capable of "killing"

The training are all different.

Depends, if I want an Olympic gold medal in Judo, I train to win that medal, but most Judo students train martial art, ie to "kill" and still do randori/what you might call "sport"

Why people devote years and years of training time in "iron palm"? Because he hopes one day his "iron palm" will have "killing power".

Shame on you, you should know better. "Iron palm" is a farce, we both know what Master Chang thought about "iron palm"

Life time is too short to be good on everything. If you want to be good in "ground fight" then you may not be good in "stand up" fight and vise verse.

I know a lot of people who have considerable skill in both standing and the ground, and most are not that old... it really depends if you "waste" your time really...

You pick up the training that you like and also find solution to cover your weak points.

Is "you" yourself, an accomplished martial artist? Or is it a general "you"? If I let my students do only what they "like" they will never improve at all... you need to challenge them to be "better"

[paradoxbox]

I agree with most of what you say, but...
I don't think this is accurate. I can't remember my source and I don't have time to look it up, but I do think that there were already various delineations of bujutsu in those days, and that the term koryu was already in use in the 1500s to distinguish them from the newly established schools. Certainly by Musashi's time there were different names of schools. and styles of fighting.

And thanks for the info on the Kuki family archives... but I'd also be a little careful of getting all of your source material from one koryu family's research and scrolls... the koryu are notorious for embellishing their own histories and making spurious claims like those linking them to the Kojiki and its contents and don't forget the Kojiki itself is a mythology as much as a history esp in its stories of the migrations and formation of the islands.

RE the first paragraph; I suppose this could be correct depending on the usage of the word. Today the term koryu refers specifically to ryu founded before Meiji. It's possible that way back 500 years ago they used the term koryu but I can say with 100% certainty it wasn't used the way we think of it now. Not that it really matters all that much.

As for the Kuki family, well, I'm not sure how much embellishing they have done. They are a very old and influential family and most of their history has been documented at some point by people outside the family.

SimonM here's a free hint; look up the Fujiwara family prior to 1337. See what happened to them in that year and who they were before then. I'll give you another hint, they had another name change in 669. But it's all the same family. Reaching back to dates like these and we're starting to get pretty close to the dates of the mythological tales I mentioned earlier.

I think you will find that these scrolls have been around longer than your initial research is turning up. Make sure you are spelling it correctly, Amaterasu is the name of the sun goddess in ancient mythology which is also connected to the Kuki family scrolls but it's unrelated to what we're talking about here.

RE: Takamatsu; he was responsible for creating copies of many (if not all) of the kuki archives during the years before the pacific war. The Kuki family has aknowledged that the copies may not be 100% accurate as the originals (many of which have been lost) but that they are definately acceptable as replacements, and they have publicly commended his effort in copying the scrolls.

Sections concerning history are in the scroll Kuki Hibumi Shiron no Maki.

And not to be a jerk or anything, but you're off by nearly 1500 years with the jomon hunter gatherer statement. The jomon had moderately developed agriculture long before 700BC. Many historians argue the jomon had been practicing light agriculture for more than 8000 years and did not develop it further because of the abundance of other foodstuffs.