What truely works? what doesnt? (mma)

[greendragon]

I was knocked down on the street once and used a thumb in the eye with eagle claw I thought I had ripped the guys face off. That and a solid throat punch had no effect because the gangbanger was wired on drugs. It was the punch to the nads that detered him from finishing me. Although I was on the ground, having a technical advantage did no good because the blow that put me there made me weak, could barely move my arms & legs, I stayed down and focused all my energy into one shot, good thing that worked. I lost that one but am now much wiser for it.

[Green Cloud]

..........as I was saying............................

Unkokusai, you have many valid points and I do understand some of the points that you are making. I have a question for you, where do you think jiu jitsu came from?? I'l anwere that for you it came from kung fu. Or how about mu tai, you guessed it kung fu. How about karate yup from okinawa taught to the peasants by a monk from shaolin. Wresteling well being 100% greek I wana say greece but some people will argue it came from india but inevitably it ended up at shaolin and then was perfected even further.

My point Unkokusai is that kung fu is mixed martial arts wich makes this conversation pointless. I started out a devoted follower of jiu jitsu, but found the style was limmited.

Once I learned Kung Fu became a good striker and didn't have to go to the ground every time someone attacked me made my life easier. I hate going to the ground it sucks you get all skuffed up cut and sustain more damage from the pavement grading the skin off your back.

It just doesn't make sense to volentarily go to the ground especialy when in most fights youre being attacked by several people, and while you are in the mounted position humping your oponent youre getting stabbed.

Wresteling or jiu jitsu works only between gentleman in an arena with rules. The very meaning of jiu jitu is the gentle mens art. It's all about subduewing an apponent without hurting him.

excuse my spelling it's late. In short I think we should familiarize ourselves in different systems of martial arts so we can figure out how to defeat them with our own system.

I love my style and am intregued by other styles. It suits me, but fight me not my style, because if I loose it's not my system that failed me but simply that I failed.

[Green Cloud]

My last post was directed to merryprankster not unkokasi not realys shure who unkokusai is or what his point was.

sorry for the missunderstanding I got confused who I was replying too.

[ChinoXL]

to unkokusai, have anybody held you by the balls literally? how would you be a wuss when they got your babies? To tell you the truth I did NOT expect it. I was going with the bjj format and the kung-fu guy was doing their own thing. Get a kung-fu guy to panther grip your inner thigh with a 90 degree twist it was the first time i've ever felt that and it was pain inflicted in such a way that I wasn't use to; wouldn't you do a little jump if you weren't prepared for it? and then ask him to get your balls (it's now in his hands).. tell me how that feels especially if that's the first time someone had ever attacked you there. AND EXCUSE ME FOR MAKING THE STORY A LITTLE MORE DRAMATIC.. I THOUGHT IT WAS FUNNY TO SHARE A MISHAP and in my experience everytime i was in a street fight i was either outnumbered and they had weapons or it's a rumble with weapons however the school fights in highschool was 1d and i taken them to ground bjj works great

[unkokusai]

to unkokusai, have anybody held you by the balls literally?

Are you coming on to me? You need to stop that. Hommie don't play dat.

[unkokusai]

Get a kung-fu guy to panther grip your inner thigh with a 90 degree twist it was the first time i've ever felt that and it was pain inflicted in such a way that I wasn't use to; wouldn't you do a little jump if you weren't prepared for it?

If your message is that you need to toughen up a bit, then go for it. Don't try to find 'rules' in your *ahem* sensitivity.

[unkokusai]

Wresteling well being 100% greek I wana say greece but some people will argue it came from india but inevitably it ended up at shaolin and then was perfected even further..

I see. Wrestling ended up at Shaolin and was 'perfected' there? You are just guzzling the Koolaide now.

[unkokusai]

Wresteling or jiu jitsu works only between gentleman in an arena with rules. The very meaning of jiu jitu is the gentle mens art. It's all about subduewing an apponent without hurting him.
.

I very sincerely believe that you understand little of a practical nature about either and are swimming in the Koolaide.

[Mr Punch]

I have a question for you, where do you think jiu jitsu came from?? I'l anwere that for you it came from kung fu.

Jiu jitsu is not a word. Jujutsu comes from Japan. There are suggestions that it came with the first settlers in Japan from China or Korea up to a couple of thousand years BC. There are also suggestions that it came from China in any of the successive migrations. There is absolutely no evidence. Furthermore there are no linguistic similarities in jujutsu and any Chinese expressions, unlike 'karate' which means 'China fist' for example. There is however some evidence that the oldest jujutsu styles were started around the 12th century in Japan (written evidence in terms of scrolls of foundation), and further some evidence that it comes from sumai, the (Japanese) forerunner of sumo.

But what's more is... who the **** cares? It's been Japanese for a thousand years. And it's evolved a lot, as should kung fu. If you're practising traditional kung fu for fighting and your style hasn't changed in a thousand years chances are what you're practising is not going to be so useful against someone who's practising a well-rounded mix of styles. If you just want it for self defence against 'the untrained, unarmed thug' who also happens to be an incompetant moron you may be ok but I wouldn't stake my life on it!

Or how about mu tai, you guessed it kung fu.

No, Muay Thai comes from Thailand. Or at least there's zero evidence and not many people suggesting otherwise.

How about karate yup from okinawa taught to the peasants by a monk from shaolin.

Bing-bong! Congratulations! One out of four! No evidence about the monk though, AND plenty of evidence to suggest that Okinawans had their own fighting arts before which would have been mixed with it, but nice try.

Wresteling well being 100% greek I wana say greece but some people will argue it came from india but inevitably it ended up at shaolin and then was perfected even further.

Wrestling comes from everywhere.

There are cave paintings and stone carving from all over prehistory with pictures of people fighting... wrestling, striking whatever... All ancient cultures had something, and since you're at it Shaolin was a Buddhist temple, and Buddhism itself comes from India.

Most styles merged with others, stole from others, took over others, it's human nature, and esp the nature of fighting... the ancient Chiense stories are full of such examples... what the hell does this ahve to do with anything?
Sure kungfu [i]was[/s] mixed MA, but if it doesn't adapt to the new, it's gonna lose. Full stop.

I don't believe I7m even wasting my time on this fantasy bollocks.

It just doesn't make sense to volentarily go to the ground ...

Nobody ever advocates this. Except kung fu people who know nothing about jujutsu trying to do it down.

Wresteling or jiu jitsu works only between gentleman in an arena with rules.

Bull. Jujutsu like kung fu was developed as a battlefield art.

The very meaning of jiu jitu is the gentle mens art. It's all about subduewing an apponent without hurting him.

Ignorance.

[SimonM]

If you're practising traditional kung fu for fighting and your style hasn't changed in a thousand years chances are what you're practising is not going to be so useful against someone who's practising a well-rounded mix of styles.

Um Mat, may be preaching to the choir on this but nobody is practicing a style of Gong Fu that hasn't changed in 1000 years. Nobody.

My Sifu in Canada trained in Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Hei Long Wushu, a couple different types of Taiji and good old western boxing. Think there was no blending? NBDMA is a really good school but it's not the only good Gong Fu school there are many others out there.

Now there may be people who practice styles that haven't changed in 100 years and that is problematic. There are other people who practice styles that have changed - for the worse - in the last 35-40 years.

And there are plenty of people who come from TCMA kwoons that realize that evolution and improvement of the art are a part of the tradition of Gong Fu. We don't have to worship at the altar of choke-meister-royce to do this either.

Wrestling comes from everywhere.

This is true. In my case most of the wrestling I have learned has origins either in Hei Long (which in turn drew from Mongolian sources) or from folk wrestling (largly of British derivation if I am not off my guess).

There are cave paintings and stone carving from all over prehistory with pictures of people fighting... wrestling, striking whatever... All ancient cultures had something, and since you're at it Shaolin was a Buddhist temple, and Buddhism itself comes from India.

Ok, hold it right here, full stop for a sec. We all know that Shaolin was NOT the birthplace of CMA right folks? Ok, good, I don't want this to descend into another "Gong Fu came from india thread", those ones make my knuckles itch.

Most styles merged with others, stole from others, took over others, it's human nature, and esp the nature of fighting... the ancient Chiense stories are full of such examples... what the hell does this ahve to do with anything?
Sure kungfu [i]was[/s] mixed MA, but if it doesn't adapt to the new, it's gonna lose.

Adapt yes. But that does not mean burning our frog-button jackets and denying that CMA has merit. There is just as much merit in well-trained CMA as in any other martial art. It's just that we have a larger number of people in CMA who want to preserve their art like it's some sort of museum relic than in a few other arts. We have to come to the realization that the great innovators of CMA were precisely that - innovators. From Wong Fei Hong to the much debated Chan Tai San these were people who studied different styles, who fought to develop improvements to their styles ans who were not content to be curators of a cultural relic. This is a fundamental tradition of Gong Fu.

Nobody ever advocates this. Except kung fu people who know nothing about jujutsu trying to do it down.

And the JJ guys have done their fair share of smack talking about Gong Fu. Much of which was also undeserved.

[Mr Punch]

Who ****ed in your cornflakes today?!

Um Mat, may be preaching to the choir on this but nobody is practicing a style of Gong Fu that hasn't changed in 1000 years. Nobody.

Ahm a-singin!
Some people think they are!

And there are plenty of people who come from TCMA kwoons that realize that evolution and improvement of the art are a part of the tradition of Gong Fu. We don't have to worship at the altar of choke-meister-royce to do this either.

Yep.

This is true.

Of course!

...from folk wrestling (largly of British derivation if I am not off my guess).

Maybe. There's a helluva a lot of wrestling from all over Europe. Britain seemed particularly rich in this tradition... prob cos we had folks from all over Europe.

Ok, hold it right here, full stop for a sec. We all know that Shaolin was NOT the birthplace of CMA right folks? Ok, good, I don't want this to descend into another "Gong Fu came from india thread", those ones make my knuckles itch.

Sure, but I was addressing somebody else's bollocks! Don't shoot the messenger!

...and denying that CMA has merit... There is just as much merit in well-trained CMA as in any other martial art.

Ahm a-still singin!

It's just that we have a larger number of people in CMA who want to preserve their art like it's some sort of museum relic than in a few other arts.

Which is ok for those who want to practise something traditional... like ikebana, or making corn dollies. Not for practising fighting skills.

This is a fundamental tradition of Gong Fu.

Yep. That's where Green Cloud and I actually agreed.

And the JJ guys have done their fair share of smack talking about Gong Fu. Much of which was also undeserved.

Er... so what!? I also do my best to take them to task when I see it. This time, I wasn't talking about them!

[ChinoXL]

wow unkokusai; another low blow.. you know what you have e-thug award no point in shyt talkin over the internet. And seriously when somebody hold you by the balls you don't want to fight anymore you freakin retard. Oh well I'mma stop feedin the troll.

[SimonM]

Who ****ed in your cornflakes today?!

Didn't realize it came off grumpy. But then:

1: I have a cough which is annoying me.
2: I got a new girlfriend but she up and left to Datong and won't be back until the day before her birthday....
3: When I wrote that post I had just finished a weights workout and was a little sore.
4: I made the mistake of reading Bullshido recently and that ALWAYS puts me a bit on the offensive. I don't know why I ever type that URL in, I really don't.


Anyways sorry if it came off grouchy.

[SevenStar]

okay even when the guy is on his back it is easy for him to get to your eyes especially if they apply the guard.. if you want to get technical fine. I did a double leg take down and I was in a kung-fu guys guard (my good friend in mantis school) .. you kno what he did? he tore my flesh from the inner thigh.. and IT HURTS~!!! i jumped up.. and that second i did he got out.. and it's weird it's like suprise pain.. have someone squeeze a little peice of your inner thigh as hard as they can.. remember a little peice BUT i've strayed from point.. it is easy for ppl to dig fingers in your eye.. especially with adrennaline..

a few things here. One, YOU lost because your mind was weaker... Pain compliance is never the answer. Biting, scratching, gouging... these are all the "surprise pain" you are talking about. They aren't fight enders unless you let them be.

next, if you were in his guard and he reached your eyes - and was able gouge them before you could do ANYTHING, then there are holes in your guard passing game. being based properly - sitting up, back straight, weight going backward, his arms shouldn't even be long enough to reach your face. From there, pick the way you pass. If you fell into his guard, you control his arms via the armpits until you are able to sit back. Keep your head buried in his chest. Either way, you did something wrong somewhere...

[SevenStar]

will someone come control the little retarded kid? he want's to play with the big kids, but he's going to get hurt.

anyways grappling is fine and nice to have in your arsenal, but you have to be a ufc fighter to beat a tough ass street fighter who has nothing to lose. your average everyday martial artist does not train with such intensity.

very untrue. We make our guys train as if they have a fight coming up. Why? because ALL of the teachers compete in something, and many of the students do as well. We don't cater to the ones who don't.

when it comes to the waist and hips and such, choy lee fut is a great way to go.

grappling is a nice supplement, don't get me wrong. but my gung fu system has a lot of good things in it.

peace.

nobody said your kung fu doesn't have good things. My longfist and jun fan had good things in it. But at the same time, it didn't prepare me for what happened when I was taken to the ground.