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Thread: Shaolin Vagabond Guy

  1. #106
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    San Francisco BAy Area
    Posts
    704
    Sorry to throw my hat in this discussion so late but maybe I can answer a few questions if not maybe some insight.

    On the subject of Sifu Lam's retirement, i'm not surprised. Actually anyone who learned in his current school are very lucky because I've known your sifu before he had any students. When he left his original school on Green Street, he was going to "give up teaching way back then". So you guys can count your luckly stars because you are very lucky he decided open another school to continue to teach.

    As for what style Hung style influence BSL it was Hung as translated as Red Style not the Southern Hung style. There is no southern influence in BSL unless the practitioner was taught a southern style first before learning BSL.

    As for the Hsing-i moves in BSL #9 and #10, there is really no way to validate when these particular moves were added. The current lyrics that we have for BSL are dated back to the late 1930's or early 1940's. I suspected that when KYC was in the Kuo Shu Provencial schools during the mid - 1920's, he was exposed to Hsing - i.

    Now Wan Li Sheng was also at the Kuo Shu provencal schools at the same time. In WLS's Lui Ho Sets, the same Hsing-i techniques are found in his Lui Ho sets. However, in WLS's first TCMA book, the Lui Ho hand set that he writes about does not have the Hsing - i techniques.

    With these two examples, one could draw conclusions but cannot be definitative, that these two masters incorporated the Hsing -i moves into their sets.

    Now when I asked my sifu about my simple conclusions, he answered that these styles are very old and have a long history. Masters of different styles cross paths throughtout our long history. In order for todays TCMA styles to exist this long, the past masters have already mixed and tried every possible techniques that would work. Of course you will find similar techniques in different styles, but one as to remember some styles will branch off and use certain preferred techniques over others and hence, you have a specialized style, call it what you want, etc.

    So I guess what he was trying to tell me is that most styles are complete in itself for its purpose, so it is not unusual to find what appears to be techniques from other unrelated styles within the style one is studying. Solid principles of fighting are found in all TCMA. They are the same. It is a matter of identifying it and knowing when to use it. In reality, we tend to read into what we think we see as a form of identifying a reference point. This is why when we observe different styles we tend to reconize certain techniques and say, it looks alike or is similar to.... and draw our own conclusion that maybe these two styles are related somewhere in the past when they are really are not related but just express the same principles of fighting throught similar moves.

  2. #107
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Fremont, CA, U.S.A.
    Posts
    48,095

    10 techniques? You just need one punch to rule China...

    ...and we all know that punch is xingyi bengquan. Didn't y'all see the ONE?

    OK, that was an obscure pun, but hopefully at least one of you got the chengyu reference.

    On a more serious note, the notion that forms are only of value if they can be used in 'real fighting' is simply absurd. Sure, you want to have the fighting techniques, but that kind of narrow viewpoint will kill TCMA faster than anything. The greatest strength of TCMA is that it offers so much more than just those 10 techniques. There's qigong elements that have no application to combat, unless you have a broad enough perspective to include illness as a potential street enemy. Is it? Yes, I think so. There's also tons of more implicit stuff, cultural stuff, like my obscure chengyu reference above. That reference, if you understand it, really gets at the core of fighting practice. TCMA is much more than just fighting. It includes that philosophy, plus so much more. That's what all these reality/street/MMA guys tend to miss. They look only at what works in the ring. But real life doesn't happen in the ring. I'm over 40. I'm not getting in no ring (although I had a challenge offer from a kickboxer recently here, and she almost enticed me, but there was nacho cheese involved, and I know I would not have survived). OK, I better stop now....I'll come back to this after I clear my head. Nacho cheese kickboxing indeed...
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  3. #108
    Wow, Northern Shaolin here too? It is a old friends (or old folks) home. LOL.

    Thanks for the insights. Good stuff.

    Kisu, what ever happended to the guy? From the "location" you show on the forum I guess you drove him out of town. haha

    I have to say, the best thing that I ever did with my kung fu was use it to open the doors to meet people. I've met some really wonderful folk in the Wu Lin.

    Gene, what can I say...

    Just wanted to share

  4. #109
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Boulder, CO
    Posts
    1,508
    I heard he went and found a real teacher and is now causing loving situations for their organization. He seems to love me loads as he creates the most amazing character assassinating fictions with me as the star and sends them to anyone who will read his romantic drivel. Probably some unrequited attraction fixation and hey cowboy I no swing my gun that way. Ha ha! Write me PM and I'll fill U in.

    Miss my cousins in the North.

    TEll Uncle Lam I hope to see him soon.

    Peace
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.
    -Patanjali Samadhi


    "Not engaging in ignorance is wisdom."
    ~ Bodhi


    Never miss a good chance to shut up

  5. #110
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Fremont, CA, U.S.A.
    Posts
    48,095

    LOL Lokhopkuen

    I must confess, this thread has become very amusing and enjoyable and we have the vagabond dude to thank. I hope he dials into this thread some day and posts.

    So back to my earlier point when I got distracted by nacho kickboxers the whole 'only applicable to combat' is such a limited perspective. Sure, you can be reductionalist, and limit yourself only to fighting techniques that work in the ring. Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, these sports are not that complicated. There's an elegance to simplicity. But there's also a power to complexity. Discarding forms throws the baby out with the bathwater for TCMA.

    Chinese culture is one of the oldest in the world, so it's very dense, layered with hidden meanings. Take Warrior's pose, which we've discussed elsewhere. There are combat applications for it. With a good imagination (and some creative interpretation) you can draw an application out of anything. But there's also this cultural meaning - the invocation of Jinnaluo - that imbues the move with something much deeper than just fighting. It's like the chengyu I mentioned above. There's a lot of implications - a lot of back story - and therein lies our morality, our ethics, and our way of life. The legend of Jinnaluo, although clearly myth, unlocks a great deal about Shaolin. You can delve into the whole Jinnaluo/Vajrapani/Bodhidharma historical evolution issue. You can also use it as inspiration - a role model for how to carry yourself as a martial artist. There are so many levels. In this way, Warrior's pose becomes so much more than just a cross punch or a knee attack. It's like a rebus or a koan. You can take it as far as you like.

    Most people just stop at the movement itself. Those are the practitioner who are only in it for health, and that's totally fine. We need more of them to strenghten our economy. Some actually learn an application, and that's better, of course. Some learn many applications and the name of the move. But the people that truly master it, they learn all the history, all the cultural context, everything. That's the spiritual level, and it's neverending.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  6. #111
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Boulder, CO
    Posts
    1,508
    I'd like to quote my Sifu as an addendum to Gene's bit:

    The Third stage is what is called self awareness training. The Book of War emphasizes that in order to be invincible, one has to first know thyself and also know your enemy. Knowing your enemy depends on your experience and also your enemy. But, knowing yourself is something that is under ones absolute control and it would be foolish to not capitalize on it. The training of self awareness can be developed via meditation, self reflection, knowledge and theory studies, and internalizing ones practices. The outcome of this stage of training will determine whether the practitioner becomes an enlightened martial artist, or just another fighter.
    Last edited by Lokhopkuen; 11-02-2006 at 06:31 PM.
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.
    -Patanjali Samadhi


    "Not engaging in ignorance is wisdom."
    ~ Bodhi


    Never miss a good chance to shut up

  7. #112
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Hobart Tasmania - Australia
    Posts
    701
    Reading all your posts is so refreshing after all the chest beating of late.

    Peace


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