Rank Testing

[Oso]

my background runs from 7 years w/ a teacher who didn't do rank

to 13 years w/ one who did and I certainly did like some aspects of it...especially when early on as a white and gold sash I was thrashing some (not all) of his black sash students ...and also much later as I became his senior student and got to teach a lot.

then I moved to be able to teach on my own and to look for more...the first thing I did was revamp the sash groupings by not strapping a sash on them first thing then as I joined up w/ Pong Lai and they did not use sashes I gladly chucked them and most of my students at the time gladly put them aside as well.

but, later, I saw that I wasn't reaching some of them...and wasn't reaching hardly any of the new ones and they were just kinda in a holding pattern...even with the tons of new material I was kicking out.

so, now, after my shifu decided that we were going to get organized. We are back in to a sash system and most everyone is content and happy and most certainly it seems to be proving a valuable focus aid w/ children.

so, maybe in America at least, it's got more to do w/ your market, who you attract in general, and not holding to a spiritual ideal as a teacher when your students don't have the same value. The vast majority of people out there have the idea of a rank structure in their head. If you can get them interested and move them on to other ideals later then fine.

[green_willow]

my background runs from 7 years w/ a teacher who didn't do rank

to 13 years w/ one who did and I certainly did like some aspects of it...especially when early on as a white and gold sash I was thrashing some (not all) of his black sash students ...and also much later as I became his senior student and got to teach a lot.

then I moved to be able to teach on my own and to look for more...the first thing I did was revamp the sash groupings by not strapping a sash on them first thing then as I joined up w/ Pong Lai and they did not use sashes I gladly chucked them and most of my students at the time gladly put them aside as well.

but, later, I saw that I wasn't reaching some of them...and wasn't reaching hardly any of the new ones and they were just kinda in a holding pattern...even with the tons of new material I was kicking out.

so, now, after my shifu decided that we were going to get organized. We are back in to a sash system and most everyone is content and happy and most certainly it seems to be proving a valuable focus aid w/ children.

so, maybe in America at least, it's got more to do w/ your market, who you attract in general, and not holding to a spiritual ideal as a teacher when your students don't have the same value. The vast majority of people out there have the idea of a rank structure in their head. If you can get them interested and move them on to other ideals later then fine.

I disagree that you need a sash to identify rank. The class should know the rank of everyone else from sparring. If they can't tell this thru sparring then there is a problem with the class and no amount of sash system will help.

[Oso]

I disagree that you need a sash to identify rank. The class should know the rank of everyone else from sparring. If they can't tell this thru sparring then there is a problem with the class and no amount of sash system will help.

good for you

[Becca]

Ahoy. Tonight I just tested for orange sash. (I passed.) At my school the rank order is No rank-->white-->yellow-->orange for beginners, green-->blue-->purple for intermediate students, and finally red-->black for advanced.

Our sashes are different and rather than a set number of calastenics, we need to "demonstrait our knowledge of streting exersized and power exersizes". And after we are all hot,sweaty and trying not to throw up from getting kicked in tummy sparring, we get to sit down to a nice written test on stylistic knowledge, history, and chinese terminology.

But other than that? Yep, pretty much the same.

[SevenStar]

We start the staff and the chucks at the same time, roughly when you reach yellow sash. I am about halfway through the staff form at this point. I believe that Sifu only recently started teaching nunchucks, because the senior students were just learning the form when I was.

yeah, that's new.

[green_willow]

that seems a somewhat extreme perspective, not to mention perhaps a little unduely judegemental...

if you're talking about a small school that is family-style, yes; but in a larger one, like more than 30 students, that would be difficult - especially as we all know how various people can fluctuate on a given day interms of sparring sucess, skill in that area alone is a pretty unreliable way to tell who's senior to who - it is also very confusing for newbies, especially those who aren't hard core types;

what's the deal where you train? is that how it works?

Sure on any given day ppl's skill can fluctuate. But there should also be a level of consistancy in performance over time otherwise it will be just random and the skill is worthless.

Sparring should be realistic enough - eg. senor vs senior - you should see very hard for either one to get their techniques working on the other because it will be countered. Senior vs junior - should overcome the junior in a couple of moves. senior vs intermediate - consistancy of success but more challenge.

In fact beginners will know who are the seniors real fast.

I've seen some TKD classes where the blue belt beats the black belt or is a tag game and neither gets anywhere - take away their belts and I won't know who is junior or senior - IMO belts is just for appearence

[SimonM]

There is another thing that is important to the senior / junior divide Green Willow. Something just as important within the martial arts community as ability to fight...

Ability to teach.

Just because you can drop somebody in the ring does not mean you can teach well.

[green_willow]

There is another thing that is important to the senior / junior divide Green Willow. Something just as important within the martial arts community as ability to fight...

Ability to teach.

Just because you can drop somebody in the ring does not mean you can teach well.

Yes, that's why all the higher ranks take turns to give instructons to the lower ranks. Even the higher ranks learn from the lower ranks if a lower rank spots something that a higher rank could improve on.

Even in terms of fighting skill - you could be the best overall, but it doesn't mean that you're better than everyone else in every department.

[green_willow]

good points, for certain - but I think it may be apples and oranges to some extent; for example, if you have blue belts beating black belts, it's not the belt per se that is the problem - it's how the rank is given out: some schools I have trained in gave away belts like candy; others it was paid for in sweat and blood; in the former, yeah, you saw the kind of inconsistencies you describe; in the others, not a chance: good quality control will make rank and skill consistent with each other; in turn, it can assist in the logistics of running a mid to larger sized school in terms of delegation of teaching, structuring of curriculum, etc. - I don't think it is an evil in and of itself; to be fair though, in my personal experience, the best training I have had was in schools that did not rank and they were all small, non-commercial in nature...but that's for me;

as for realism in sparring - again, i think you are projectng your own criteria a bit excessively: personally, i agree with you 100% - sparring should be as realistic as possible; but remember, for many if not most people MA is more a sport / recreational activity - they are not interested in hard-core / realism - now, that's their problem as far as I am concerned, as well as their instructors, for all of the obvious reasons; but for many/most folks, they like to have their little MA fantasy world, which includes a knowable structure they can visually depend on - it's like the Elks or Masons, except you get to hit each other a little and swing around neon-colored toothpicks while making strange noises...

Yes I agree if done correctly rank and skill should be consistent.

Sparring can be realistic but shouldn't be unsafe. think of a pack of wolves establishing thier pecking order. It's not done in a way that loses an eye or limb everytime. It's done though mock fights & play.

[Mr Punch]

Sparring can be realistic but shouldn't be unsafe. think of a pack of wolves establishing thier pecking order. It's not done in a way that loses an eye or limb everytime. It's done though mock fights & play.

LOL

In most schools it's like a herd of chicken-necked geeks establishing their pecking order. It's not done in a way that loses glasses or street cred every time. It's done through slapping and play.

it's not the belt per se that is the problem - it's how the rank is given out...I don't think it is an evil in and of itself

Although generally I feel I don't need any ranking system, I've met a lot of people like NeuroGrrl who obviously feel much better with them.

And what Chris just said was exactly the problem I had with that school I mentioned. One woman who was above me had had an easy ride because she was a woman. She hated that she couldn't do anything she was supposed to be able to (she couldn't even finish the forms - the whole two of them! - without forgetting, let alone complete lack of any ability in putting the apps into effect) and was embarassed, and in fact kept comign to me for instruction because I was the onoly one who took the time not to mollycoddle her, but to teach her straight. But of course it wasn't my place to teach, just to give a rough guide to her as her senior... except... yep, as you've just read, she was my senior!

Confused? So was everybody there!

In sparring I was obviously streets ahead of everyone else but I came from a different lineage so all that political bollocks got in the way: my 'teacher' wasn't going to grade me too high too quickly despite already meeting his system requirements, but every newbie who came to watch couldn't help but notice that I was frankly, the best there, and kept asking me for teaching... which of cousre I couldn't and didn't want to do in the face of the teacher (who liked walking around the clas on his hands and **** like that).

He never failed anybody a grading because (I guess) they would get some of their money back.

Can we say McKwoon?! But as the teacher knew his stuff (he was just a lazy showoff who never bothered to teach) if the grading system had been legit it would've made a difference... but then of course if there'd been no grading system it would've too.

[Oso]

it's all going to depend on the integrity of the teacher setting up and administering the system. No one can make a blanket statement about anyone else's system till they see it in action over an extended period of time.

[SevenStar]

Sure on any given day ppl's skill can fluctuate. But there should also be a level of consistancy in performance over time otherwise it will be just random and the skill is worthless.

Sparring should be realistic enough - eg. senor vs senior - you should see very hard for either one to get their techniques working on the other because it will be countered. Senior vs junior - should overcome the junior in a couple of moves. senior vs intermediate - consistancy of success but more challenge.

In fact beginners will know who are the seniors real fast.

I've been doing MA for years. However, if I started at another school in a different style, I would be a white belt. If we sparred, newer white belts would think I was a senior. For this reason, A ranking system would help them determine that I am not a senior in that style and that they shouldn't ask me questions that they should be asking a senior.

[Oso]

I've been doing MA for years. However, if I started at another school in a different style, I would be a white belt. If we sparred, newer white belts would think I was a senior. For this reason, A ranking system would help them determine that I am not a senior in that style and that they shouldn't ask me questions that they should be asking a senior.

good point.

[Judge Pen]

'chucks and northern shaolin? Interesting.

[SevenStar]

There were no chucks before... I'm not sure when that changed though. The first weapon we learned was staff, followed by the broadsword.