More power

[Sekabin]

That doesn't mean anything unless your teacher can tell you what you're doing! It also has limited gains until you start working with resistance.

I think you're spot on, with one addition. I think there is some benefit in doing SNT even if you don't have a teacher telling you what you're doing, provided you're doing it right. And this might be possible without a teacher. Basically the teacher is necessary at the beginning while you're learning the form, and later to 'turn on' what you've been developing (for want of a better phrase). But this might be possible without a teacher too.

Right on with the resistance part. Training against resisting opponents, and resistance in general allows one to experience the meaning within the years of SNT.

[Hendrik]

That doesn't mean anything unless your teacher can tell you what you're doing! It also has limited gains until you start working with resistance.

That is very true.

That's why I propose. Breaking into different Layers to check it out and test it out.

IMHO, the easiest way to learn about things is to be hands on and exploring it in different ways.

[Matrix]

More Sui Lum Tao

Of course you can never do too much SLT, however, I would think this is a Chum Kiu thing. By that I mean SLT in motion. Learning to step and strike with the proper coordination, timing and body mechanics.

[r4cy]

I don't know how the topic went somewhere else. LoL

[Sekabin]

I don't know how the topic went somewhere else. LoL

receive what comes, escort what goes, and if all else fails... make something up!

[Mr Punch]

I think you're spot on, with one addition. ... Basically the teacher is necessary at the beginning while you're learning the form,...

Sure I am! Plus this r4cy geezer's obviously a beginner so I was more spot on than your addition (tho of course I agree)

I don't know how the topic went somewhere else. LoL

LoL my arse! We're still answering your question! If you don't like/understand the answers you should go train some more!

[bcbernam777]

Of course you can never do too much SLT, however, I would think this is a Chum Kiu thing. By that I mean SLT in motion. Learning to step and strike with the proper coordination, timing and body mechanics.

True, however I have found through experiance that many people A) dont have the proper SLT foundation, B) dont seem to understand that the majority of power in Wing Chun comes from the SLT C) dont learn to put their Chum Kui back into their SLT. The majority of power comes through the proper foundation, the Chum Kui is simply an extension of that energy that has been developed through the SLT

[bcbernam777]

That doesn't mean anything unless your teacher can tell you what you're doing! It also has limited gains until you start working with resistance.

Whilst it is true that resistance from your oponant is of value, you can actually continue to train the SLT with the mental concept or feeling of this resistance, as it is the stance or "root" that recieves this resistance, therefore it is of great value to practice the form on a regular basis. And, proper instruction is important in the SLT.

[Sekabin]

Whilst it is true that resistance from your oponant is of value, you can actually continue to train the SLT with the mental concept or feeling of this resistance, as it is the stance or "root" that recieves this resistance, therefore it is of great value to practice the form on a regular basis. And, proper instruction is important in the SLT.

I don't think anyone is saying that it's not useful to do SNT regularly. But there are many people who believe that doing it gives them some sort of magical power, and then are heartily disappointed when it doesn't emerge against resistance. If you're doing your SNT properly (and yes that would require some guidance, at least at the beginning and later down the line) then it should work against resistance... otherwise you're doing it wrong and would be better forgetting it alltogether.

[bcbernam777]

I don't think anyone is saying that it's not useful to do SNT regularly. But there are many people who believe that doing it gives them some sort of magical power, and then are heartily disappointed when it doesn't emerge against resistance. If you're doing your SNT properly (and yes that would require some guidance, at least at the beginning and later down the line) then it should work against resistance... otherwise you're doing it wrong and would be better forgetting it alltogether.

You got it baby

I think the fundamental problem is the quality of instruction in the SLT, I may be mistaken but my feeling about contemporary instruction is that there is little attention to the SLT to teach it properly. I would rather have a student who would endure 2 years of proper instruction in the SLT than try to "burst" through to the CK, BJ or the others

[Mr Punch]

True, however I have found through experiance that many people A) dont have the proper SLT foundation, B) dont seem to understand that the majority of power in Wing Chun comes from the SLT C) dont learn to put their Chum Kui back into their SLT. The majority of power comes through the proper foundation, the Chum Kui is simply an extension of that energy that has been developed through the SLT

You got it baby

As for the amount of time on SLT, I know you were talking hypothetically, but I'm a firm believer in eliciting the student's optimal pace. Some students are fast learners, and then some should probably spend five years or more on SLT!

But again, the one good way of testing whether they can use what they've learnt in SLT properly (or whether they've been taught it properly) is through progressive resistance exercises.... starting perhaps with the wall bag and two person san sao.

[bcbernam777]

You got it baby

As for the amount of time on SLT, I know you were talking hypothetically, but I'm a firm believer in eliciting the student's optimal pace. Some students are fast learners, and then some should probably spend five years or more on SLT!

But again, the one good way of testing whether they can use what they've learnt in SLT properly (or whether they've been taught it properly) is through progressive resistance exercises.... starting perhaps with the wall bag and two person san sao.

Absolutly, as Sifu says the Chi Sau instructs the Sui Lum Tao

[Hendrik]

I don't know how the topic went somewhere else. LoL

try this

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules....iewtopic&t=214

[tansaujosh]

actually i disagree, u can do to much sui lim tau and you cant. after about 20-25 mins the mind loses focus unless you are an expert at keeping concentrated yet not thinking. r4cy a good way to develop power is isometrics. get into your basic wing chun stance place your fist on the wall as if you had just struck it, and push, dont push so much that you upset your balance, but after a while it will condition your legs enough that your balance will be gd enough. you may also want to try pushing against a wall as hard as pos, only for 10-12 secs max at each time, because after that its jus pointless and stops developing your muscle tissue. the good thing about isometrics is that it increases power riduculessly without adding on weight. this was one of the key training factors that bruce lee used to develop himself.

[Mr Punch]

Josh,

reasonable exercise but I don't see how that's an improvement on say, somebody pushing and pulling and slapping your arms and torso, and standing on and stamping and sweeping your legs while you do at least the first part of SLT, which was one element of how I was taught. That will help you develop a strong root, so that it's not just strong in one direction (ie when punching) but for issuance of a powerful short-range strike in any direction at any time from any point of your body, eg elbow, knee, head, shoulder etc.

When they reach chum kiu level (and before in drills and chi sao) they should be working on taking control of the pushes etc, going with the flow to deliver a strike... but for basic punching power, IF you have been taught SLT correctly you have the basics with which to work the wall bag, the heavy bag, etc etc to develop your penetrative punch.

When training solo before a heavy bag session, I always do SLT, and then work some of the techs/energies from SLT into my heavy bag routine. It's a nice progression.

Nor do I think the exercise you described is necessarily an improvement on hitting a wall bag. In fact, you're developing muscles against slow pushes as opposed to impact. Now I'm no expert, but muscle specificity being what it is, wouldn't that be slow twitch as opposed to fast twitch? And thus the whole linkage, the whole resistance from your fist through to you foot would be working on slow muscle mechanics...? Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Plus, I'm not sure what you're disagreeing to here:

actually i disagree, u can do to much sui lim tau and you cant.