Forms

[Anthroman]

I was just curious about everyones opinion concerning learning forms and applications. Personally I think learning application and the form together help to reinforce each other in my Ba gua. I also feel that it helps to have intent in the form. I have a friend though who just started leanring Tai chi and his instructors philosophy is that he should do the forms for at least 2 years before learning applications. Her reason was that after 2 years he would be able to use fa-jing and that if he tries now he will do it wrong most likely and will never really be able to correct himself later on. what does everything think as far as their own training and experience?

[count]

Forms are nowhere near as important as the basic principals that apply. In our school we don't even start a form until covering the basics and applications. Drilling them with steps, stances and 2 man. And understanding and identifying the elemental energies that apply. Once we start to learn forms, we already know them.

[YiLiChuan2]

I agree with count, the priciples are the most important thing. Once you understand them, then it's rock and roll from there with countless amounts of one steps and two steps.

[shaolin white crane]

The forms are very important, is like learnig to speak, you first use single words, but then you can build complex sentences. The same with the form, you teach your body how to react and with time an practice, you learn to make the form your own. In other words you liberate yourself from it, and in taoist terms you become one with tha Tao from then. Doing the form is no longer a consius effort, it is part of you, it is you. Your movements become fluid and gracefull and self defense is like and instict. Thats what I feel the term "GOING FROM A SMALL CIRCLE TO NO CIRCLE" means. But the meaning of the movemente must be understood in order to reach to this level. From then on it becomes an incursion in to paradise.
Amioufo

Luis Fernando Espinosa Ceja
Sorry about my bad english

[PlasticSquirrel]

so he does the forms without fa-jing, but in her mind he's not messing himself up? knowing the applications has nothing at all to do with being able to fa-jing. knowing applications is all about yi and being able to fight with it. if she's so worried about him not being able to correct himself later on, then only way to stop him from doing things wrong is to not teach him any of the movements that do fa-jing.

students in chen village, students learn both form and application at the same time, and practice that way. do they mess themselves up for life? no.

[ope]

Shaolin White Crane i totaly agree with what you said..

I think the reason why some instructors do not teach the application until they get the form to be more "natural" is students can sometimes confuse themselfs while practicing, if there worried about the application of the form and they dont take there time actually learning the techqiues.. they can run into problems.. now if a student learns a form and it becomes a part of them... then learning the application shouldnt be that diffacult (assuming your instructor knows the application :) )

[Mr. Nemo]

I like seeing the applications, partly because they're cool looking, and partly because seeing a couple applications for one move gives me ideas for applications for others. In addition, it gives me a certain amount of faith in the basic movements (this is hard to explain).

I tried this on my roommate the other day. I had him stand in a normal guard stance and choose a number between 1 and 8. He chooses 5, say, and I do the fifth basic movement we learned for the yin soe form. I tell him to do whatever he thinks he'd do to react to that in a real fight, and pick another number. He picks 3, and I do the third basic movement. I was able to find an application for that one, too - we did this five or six times and I was able to find an application each time. Some of them were a little shaky, but the point is, you don't necessarily have to know the formal application of a move to use it - some of these applications were ones our sifu had never shown us.