New Gor-Sau Clips from NG Chun-hong Wing Chun Association

[El Tejon]

Outstanding. Thanks so much for posting those. All the members of my club have watched them and they have inspired us.

Your concentration in staying cool and relaxed is something to emulate. Thank you again.

Kirk, Tippecanoe Wing Chun Association.

[El Tejon]

Hey, just checked your lineage. We are "cousins" (at least Wing Chun cousins).

My sigung is Siu Luk Men.

[Knifefighter]

Since Sifu only learnt Wing Chun, he can only teach Wing Chun. The Wing Chun he teaches is a combination of the knowledge from his three Sifus and from his own inspiration.

This is a perfect example of why cross-training can be so helpful. Those clips showed that if you took what was being done there, you could make up for the weaknesses by combining it with with clinch techniques. Put those two things together and you could have something pretty good.

[Knifefighter]

To be an effective fighting art, Wing Chun must improve and keep up with time.

For Sifu, he does not see a need to improve Wing Chun.

Isn't that kind of a contradiction?

What if there was a very simple way to shut down the guy who has gotten in off-angle and has the opponent's arms "trapped" and/or is throwing punches/elbows? Wouldn't it make sense to make an improvement there?

[Liddel]

Knifefighter ill hazard a guess at what is meant because i find that i am in a similar situation and what i see of the Gor Sao clips is very similar to our training but with a little more intensity...

"To be an effective fighting art, Wing Chun must improve and keep up with time"

Meaning we should -
1) improve our VT skills and ability in fighting
2) be aware of other styles and how to deal with them in our own 'VT' way.


"For Sifu, he does not see a need to improve Wing Chun. "

As in adding aspects of other arts for improvement.

Knifefighter i like what u said -

"This is a perfect example of why cross-training can be so helpful. Those clips showed that if you took what was being done there, you could make up for the weaknesses by combining it with with clinch techniques. Put those two things together and you could have something pretty good."

However i believe that you can and should adapt your VT to deal with a clinch or anything else foreign to our art ( but not foreign to fighting).... only then when you have your own 'VT' way to deal with it can or should you entertain other styles "Way".

This is making you less of a clone and making VT more your own IMHO.

[Knifefighter]

be aware of other styles and how to deal with them in our own 'VT' way.

Why stay within a single style when that style clearly has no answer for a particular situation?
The one guy obviously had no answer for the other person's attack, once he was offline, trapping, and hitting. Why not use another style's method to deal with the VT attack? Wouldn't it make sense to use another system's efficient method to shut down that kind of attack?
That would surely make the whole exercise that much more realistic.

[Liddel]

I see your point Knifefighter -
However i find your comments to vaugue.

You say -
" Why stay within a single style when that style clearly has no answer for a particular situation? "

Thats a POV man.
Clearly in a style that has so many differences your comment cannot and in my situation DOES not apply to any and all.

In this situation - I totally agree with you. But others may have answers for the situation and have used them with great results. Some may not ?

"The one guy obviously had no answer for the other person's attack, once he was offline, trapping, and hitting."

Your right - that ONE GUY had no answer. But that doesnt mean he couldnt later find one from VT that he didnt realise before in the LEARNING process and use it in the next encounter.

I didnt see anywhere that mentioned he was a master or knew all that can be used in VT.

If you cant find an answer it doesnt mean its not there ? Look harder or Yes try another styles approach.

[Knifefighter]

Your right - that ONE GUY had no answer. But that doesnt mean he couldnt later find one from VT that he didnt realise before in the LEARNING process and use it in the next encounter.

I didnt see anywhere that mentioned he was a master or knew all that can be used in VT.ch.

Then why wasn't the instructor teaching him how to shut down that attack? The fact that it kept happening over and over again with pretty much the same off-angle says that it isn't in the system or, at least that the instructor has not figured it out yet.

Why so adamant about "staying within the system" when othes systems have already figured it out for beginning level students?

[Vajramusti]

Alan- thanks for sharing the gor sao clip. Greetings to your sifu.
Sorry to hear about the passing of Lok Yiu. The list of people with substantial contact with Ip man is sadly getting considerably short. Best wishes,

joy chaudhuri

[Liddel]

Knifefighter asks
"Then why wasn't the instructor teaching him how to shut down that attack?"

That is a question for Alan or his Sifu... Alan ???

Through my experience ill entertain the possibility that the instructor wants the stundents to find the answer for themselves or perhaps he did instruct them after the vid ?

My point was not that he shouldnt use your suggestion, but merely that its not the only choice of action.

Then you wrote -
"Why so adamant about "staying within the system" when other systems have already figured it out for beginning level students?"

Because i believe it to be within the system as i have found through my experience, if i hadnt then i would seek outside influence. Thats all

[Alan Lau]

Hen, we aim for energies that are neither soft nor hard, and which are harmonious to the one received from our opponent, relative positions of our hands and bodies, timing, etc. We call this the 'sticky' energy.

El Tejon & Vajramusti, thank you.

Knifefighter, the clips shows gor-sau training between two Wing Chun guys who happen to be si-hing-dai. You are reading far too much into these clips. This was the reason why Sifu made the following notes to accompany the gor-sau clips.

"Our website has recently released a selection of motion clips of our class during gor-sau practice. The aim being the heightening of interest in Wing Chun Kung Fu and make known to visitors the actual occurrences in our class. We have not purposely fabricated any scenes or techniques to achieve any sort of goals whatsoever.

It should be realised that during the gor-sau practice, both the students may possess different skill levels and intentions. While engaging in such practice/training, the pace can be very quick and the students have to endeavour to practice both attacking and defensive techniques, and the inter-changeable nature of the two. Occasionally, students would practice techniques of controlling and neutralising incoming forces. Most important, however, is the need for concentration during the practice so as to prevent inflicting injury to the partner. Nevertheless, due to the high pace involved, the occurrence of errors, large and small, in the application of techniques are inevitable.

Such mistakes and errors during training can seldom be avoided and it is hoped that viewers would look upon these with understanding. Further, it is hoped that viewers would not miscomprehend the nature of the clips since they are not clips of actual sparring competitions and certainly not performed for the purpose of demonstration.

The understanding of the principal “Receive what comes, escort what goes, thrust forward when the arms are disengaged” should include the method of attacking and defending. Thus, the practicing of this principal should include, at the same time, attacking and defending. If the student only concentrates on the attacking aspect, and overlook the defensive, then this is an incomplete way of training. The method of training at our Association is that of the traditional way, which has been passed down in its purest form. People with an adequate understanding of Wing Chun would, I believe, understand that the gor-sau clips are merely those showing a single aspect of our training and where the situation warrants, we would select the ever more simpler and direct alternatives.

After the release of the clips, we have received many emails from fellow Wing Chun practitioners around the World. We are thus very grateful for the support that has been received. The aim of establishing our website is to attempt to link up and liaise with Wing Chun enthusiasts around the World and to increase the learning boundaries and interest of our art. Should any material on the website inadvertently causes ill feeling or concern, we would sincerely apologies. Thank you!"

(Please see the original Chinese version here.)

As Liddel has so rightly pointed out (thanks, Liddel ) , "To be an effective fighting art, Wing Chun must improve and keep up with time" refers to one's constant stride for greater understanding and expressiveness of the Wing Chun Fighting System. Others may feel that their Wing Chun has its limitation or they have reached a dead-end where their skills can no longer provide the improvement they seek, and search for an alternative elsewhere. Speaking for myself and most of my Si-hing-dei, we are certain all the solutions are within the Wing Chun system offered by Sifu and we are thus improving ourselves so we can find the solution whenever a question arise. This should also clear up your question of contradiction.

Lastly, I wish to point out that I still have a long way to go, as you can see in the clips. The limitation of my performance is a reflection of my ability and not Sifu’s. The competency of Sifu's students is a reflection of his Wing Chun skill.

[YungChun]

Thanks for your responses above Alan.

=================

Knife:

If I understand your question:

When playing these kinds of drills it is perfectly normal for one player to take control over another or make him loose position, etc. This does not mean that the system or even the player does not have an "answer" for dealing with this kind of attack or the technique used to gain the upper hand; Rather it means that one player managed to gain a positional and/or timing advantage on the other and/or the other player made an error that was exploited and used to apply whatever moves, attacks, finishes/submission. The ability of one person to apply an "answer" in this kind of drilling generally improves as one gain more experience and general skill in the activity.

Just as in BJJ; Just because one fighter is submitted by another it does not mean that 'BJJ' does not have an "answer" to counter the attack, or even that the fighter that was submitted didn't have this 'answer' in his "box". Rather, it means, as with any dynamic "answer" to a dynamic "problem"; The ability to apply the answer is dependant on the person's overall skill, abilities, and even some luck. In the end it is the very purpose of such training to improve the ability to apply the correct "answers" in a timely and efficient manner.

[Ultimatewingchun]

This is all well and good...(and props to this school for training like this and posting the clips)...but the fact remains that we're just watching wing chun vs. wing chun without any serious attempt to actually hit or kick with power to vulnerable targets (understandable...no protective gear)...

so you can't read very much into whether or not these clips show moves that would actually work against other stylists - including grapplers and MMA people.

And you can't read very much into the remarks on the webpage in terms of trying to understand whether or not these guys (or their instructor) really could defend and attack successfully against the type of non-wing chun people I mentioned - just using their wing chun.

In this regard those clips are totally inconclusive.

[Mr Punch]

True Victor, but read the disclaimer... and don't forget, Alan didn't say he was trying to prove anything! You're watching Gor Sau clips and in this case, I don't really think you need to conclude anything other than that!

Correct me if I'm wrong but Sifu Ng was a police inspector in downtown Mong Gok for what was it Alan? 40 years? It just may be that he has had to use some of his skills against non-wing chunners...

[Alan Lau]

Just want to clarify on what Mat had said, this was something I had written on Sifu:

"Having worked as a detective in the Hong Kong Police Force in his entire career before retiring, Sifu has had the best of training available in Hong Kong to prepare him for the investigative work against organised crimes and serious triad offences. Many people nowadays talk about the need to test the techniques on the street – to find out what works and what doesn’t (the so-called take what is useful and discard what's not). Though he doesn’t like to divulge the occasions in which his Wing Chun skill had meant the success of a raid or the saving of his and his colleagues’ lives, Sifu’s colleagues in the Police Force frequently visit the gym and tell of these occasions. They would talk of bewilderment when, at the crunch time, Sifu would dart forward and subdue the suspect with majestic grace and efficiency. He preferred not to use his firearms unless absolutely necessary for his limbs were more deadly that any firearms, save, of course, in an emblazing gun battle. Back at the police station, the events would be the talking point for weeks to come. In the canteen, Sifu would be treated like a celebrity. His response? He would play it down by saying it's just a fluke and overly exaggerated. People talk about cage fights, etc., but how many people have fought desperate men who would not hesitate to kill or seriously injure so as to escape imprisonment? For these fights, there are no rules and no referees. These were Sifu's 'beimo'; a way of life during his 30 years as a Police detective in Hong Kong."