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Thread: Bujutsu and Budo

  1. #1

    Bujutsu and Budo

    Hello everyone,

    I am 17 and have been practising martial arts since I was 13. I train in 8 Step Mantis and Xingyi and love them both. Because I am very involved in both Japanese culture and the Japanese community in my city, I would like to become involved in Japanese martial arts.

    Aikido and Aikijutsu both appeal as I think they would be sufficiently different to what I'm training in at the moment, but really I'm not sure which style to become interested in. I've heard mixed reports of Bujinkan Ninjutsu, and other styles (like Shintaido) I don't know anything about. I am not particularly interested in Judo or Kendo as they look fairly sports orientated and I would like to keep training in an unarmed style.

    I am going to continue practising my mantis and xingyi but would be interested in if anyone has any advice regarding Japanese martial arts!

    Many thanks!

    S
    Black Mantis

  2. #2
    Hi I can help you. I have a Black Belt in Bujinkan Budo Taijitsu. I trained in it for 9 years. It is a great style but the people in bujinkan are 100% A holes. There is no form a free fighting in the Bujinkan . Every thing is two man Kata and drills. People for some reason always want to act like teachers when you train with them. It is so bad that I had a white belt once tell me what to do while I was a black belt. It is out of hand. Try the Genbukan they seem to have stricter rules about how to act durring training. Also there techneques look alot crisper. I do Internal kung fu and judo now. Judo may be a sport but you will gain usable skill from it. Judo is a very effective fighting art. I throw people in kung fu all the time with the most basic judo throws.

  3. #3
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    Blackmantis - where do you live? Unless you live in Japan your options will be limited according to your location, but I'm sure I can help in some way, depending on where you are.

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    Shintaido? Don't. Hare Krishna meets Ki-Aikido....


    Judo is excellent for combative purposes, as well as sport.

    If you live within range of a Kyokushin Dojo, go. It's a highly combative form of Karate, which practices full contact (no fist-to-face) sparring, no pads.
    Last edited by Wood Dragon; 02-03-2006 at 12:14 AM.
    SevenStar: It's hilarious seeing people's reactions when they see a big, black dude with a sword walking toward them.

    Masterkiller: Especially when they're at the ATM.

    WTF? How did we go from the White Haired Devil strangling and beating guys to death in a teahouse, to Mr Miyagi and Jhoon Rhee?
    .

  5. #5
    Hi blackmantis,

    I agree judo would be very good, but it always depends upon the school and the instructors as well. I have trained in both Aikijutsu and Aikido. Both have their benefits and detriments. I like the joint locking, and throws of Aikido, but some schools are too passive. Aikijutsu will get you sued if you ever have to use it, (also depends on the instructor) it will primarily teach you to toss someone on their head breaking their neck, or break an arm. This would be considered excessive force in all but life threatening circumstances. Judo is more easily transferred to the real world, than either Aikido or Aikijutusu. Judo also has joint locking and grappling as well.

  6. #6
    Thank you very much for all your help that is very interesting.

    What is the difference between Genbukan and Bujikan? I've also heard of "Jinenkan" or something like that.

    I didn't realise Aikijutsu was so extreme! What are everyone's views on Jujutsu?

    I'm probably moving down to London in September if that helps?


    Thank you!!

    S
    Black Mantis

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    It is a great style but the people in bujinkan are 100% A holes
    Wow, that is a bit of a sweeping statement.
    Monkey vs. Robot

  8. #8
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    Blackmantis,

    Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan are all 'ninjutsu' styles of the same family (descended from Takamatsu Tosh!tsugu). However, there are many misconceptions held by the masses regarding these arts - they are NOT 'ninjutsu, and have no historical connection to ninjutsu. And they are NOT koryu (old school martial arts) - other than the Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu, which Takamatsu was known to have studied (extensively), none of the other styles he claimed to have passed to Hatsumi Masaaki can be verified as having aa history prior to Takamatsu. For a more thorough explanation of what I'm trying to get at, see: http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/y...34742;start=15

    If you're heading down to London, I'd check out Mr. Lee Masters and his father, doing Tenjin Shinyo Ryu jujutsu. I'm also sure there would be some good Aikido in London, if you're interested in that. I don't know of any Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu dojo in London, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were. Be VERY wary of 'other' "Aikijutsu or Aikijujutsu" schools, they are almost all modern creations.
    Last edited by Finny; 02-03-2006 at 06:05 AM.

  9. #9
    [QUOTE=blackmantis]Thank you very much for all your help that is very interesting.

    What is the difference between Genbukan and Bujikan? I've also heard of "Jinenkan" or something like that.

    Genbukan and Bujinkan are the same style with two diferent grand master. If you are really interested get a hold of two tapes one with Hatsumi and on one with Tanamora head of Genbukan and you can see the differents. Jinenkan allso has a diffrent Head Master but focuss on the other 6 ryus in the bujijkan minus the three ninja ryus.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown
    Aikijutsu will get you sued if you ever have to use it, (also depends on the instructor) it will primarily teach you to toss someone on their head breaking their neck, or break an arm. This would be considered excessive force in all but life threatening circumstances. Judo is more easily transferred to the real world, than either Aikido or Aikijutusu.
    By that logic, aikido would get you sued too. The only difference between good aikido and aikijutsu is that you don't crank the finish on so hard in aikido... on the street the result would be the same. You don't rely on pain compliance, you grab it wrench it lock it break it. I also disagree with your assumption that judo is any 'safer' than aikido or -jutsu... if you throw somebody with most judo throws on to his head or back on a concrete street, against a kerb, against a wall, between two parked cars you're still gonna **** up his day just as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmantis
    I didn't realise Aikijutsu was so extreme! What are everyone's views on Jujutsu?
    Aikijutsu is certainly no more hardcore than any other martial art. Koryu aikijutsu has a few more throws and locks (sometimes outlawed in mainstream aikido), and groundwork (there are pictures on Jason Delucia's site of Ueshiba, the founder of aikido, doing a guillotine, an armbar and a choke from a side mount whilst practising daito-ryu aikijujutsu).

    Ironically, it also has better internal connectiveness exercises than most aikido (which supposedly concentrates on those things - some people call them ki development exercises, but they are nothing mystical: essentially ways of training connective muscles and their interactions with the ligaments and tendons). Some of these exercises are not even commonly practised in koryu nowadays for some reason: For example, Takeda and Kimura of daito-ryu used to swear by shiko, the sumo exercise where they lift their legs like a peeing dog... but precious few people practice that anymore, even over here. You'll be exceptionally lucky to find good aikijujutsu in London or anywhere in the UK, though I have heard of Finny's recommendation.

    As for the difference between aikijutsu and jujutsu, there isn't much. Depending on which koryu scrolls you read one is an offshoot of the other. They certainly seem to have developed parallel to each other. Some old aikijutsu is called aikijujutsu. The main difference is the way they view kuzushi, the principle of unbalancing. Don't have time to go into it now, sorry!

  11. #11
    Thanks that's great!

    In terms of techniques and training methods however, are there any differences between Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan?

    I am particularly interested in the Aikido/Taijutsu-type throwing methods and joint manipulation- does Aikijutsu have these?

    S
    Black Mantis

  12. #12
    Hi Mat,

    As usual you perceive according to your preconceived notions and not according to what was written. Your assessment of the differences and similarities between Aikido and Aikijutsu are in error. As a qualifier it does depend greatly upon the instructor and the style, something I mentioned and you apparently disregarded.

    Aikido is basically intended to be used for the purpose of defending oneself resulting in as little harm to the assailant as possible. Because of this the techniques may be preformed in a more or less aggressive manner as necessity dictates. Certainly injuries may occur, but the method and intent of performing locks and throws are different from Aikijutsu. Aikijutsu was designed for battlefield use and historically is unconcerned with controlling, but was used to incapacitate or kill. O Sensei’s intent was to find a gentler manner of defeating an assailant. Something more applicable to modern needs. Aikido may be taken to a fatal level and Aikijutsu at its advanced levels may be used in a gentler manner, however the traditionally historic intent of each is different.

    As an example Aikijutsu tends to throw an assailant at the defenders feet while Aikido tends to toss the assailant away from the defender. Being thrown at the foot of the defender increases the opportunity and likelihood of landing on ones head. High falls are much more prevalent in Aikijutsu than Aikido for this reason. As a qualifier it does depend upon the style and the school. Yoshikan Aikido, Gozo Shioda’s tradition for example is a harder style of Aikido than Hombu style and used by many Japanese Police Departments.

    Your statements regarding Judo are spurious. Anything may be accidentally or unintentionally fatal. Pushing someone may cause them to fall and hit their head causing death. Your comments are therefore meaningless. Traditional Judo as it was originally practiced includes a large curriculum, including throws, grappling and joint locks. Someone who finds a good traditional instructor would acquire a broader knowledge of techniques increasing their potential effectiveness. These techniques are less lethal than Aikijutsu and of broader scope than Aikido!

    Since this thread is for the purpose of helping blackmantis determine his next venture into the world of MA I am not interested in getting into another pi$$ing contest with you. So do not expect me to continue trying to clear the fog from your limited, preconceived notions.

    Hi blackmantis,

    Aikijutsu does have joint manipulations. They are effective and very painful. As I previously mentioned it always depends upon the style and the instructor. A good style with a poor instructor might be better than nothing, but there are inherent deficiencies that may require further searching of other MA to fill in the gaps. You may need to try different styles and schools to find what fits your goals and needs. There are differences between jujutsu and Aikijutsu, but yet again it does depend upon the style and the instructor. I have trained in Jujutsu, Aikijutsu, Aikido and a little Judo. (My father was a Judo player.) All styles have their limitations. Find something and try it. If you don’t prefer it then look for something else. You may find a style you like, but don’t like the instructor in which case find another school of the same style.
    Last edited by Scott R. Brown; 02-03-2006 at 09:27 AM.

  13. #13
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    Actually Scott, much of what has been written regarding Aikijujutsu here has been erroneous.

    For starters, technically there is no koryu Aikijujutsu. The only 'real' lineage of Aikijujutsu which can be traced back to the turn of the century, is Daito Ryu. No other "Aikijujutsu" style has any real connection to Japanese history (aside from perhaps Don Angier's Yanagi Ryu, but that's another story).

    Daito Ryu is NOT characteristic of battlefield grappling arts like Yagyu Shingan Ryu or Takenouchi Ryu. It is widely thought that Daito Ryu was largely constructed by Takeda Sokaku. To reiterate - "Aikijujutsu" is not an historical, battlefield art, it is a self defense art, created around the turn of the twentieth century.

    Blackmantis, I myself would jump at the opportunity to learn Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and Kodokan Judo (as practised by Mssrs Masters). An INCREDIBLE art.
    Last edited by Finny; 02-03-2006 at 07:37 PM.

  14. #14
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    Jinenkan allso has a diffrent Head Master but focuss on the other 6 ryus in the bujijkan minus the three ninja ryus.
    Manaka sells Togakure Ryu videos. Isn't that one of the ninjutsu ryu from Takamatsu?
    Monkey vs. Robot

  15. #15
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    The X-kan (Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan) situation is.....complex.

    Suffice to say that the G-kan and J-kan honchos were originally Senior Instructors (Shihan) under Hatsumi of the B-kan (who inherited the 9 systems from Takematsu).

    For various reasons, and without undue acrimony, they split off to teach how they thought best.

    8 of the 9 systems (ryu) cannot be traced back prior to the emergence of Takematsu. One of the 9 is, last I heard, considered (by outside experts) to be identical to a ryu of the same name from another system entirely, which CAN trace it's lineage back several centuries (and is thus a Koryu).

    Hatsumi was invited to join the big Koryu Association (forget the actual name), and was required to show evidence of the antiquity of the 9 systems. Last I heard, it was still "undetermined". However, he was very upfront about it, and no one, among those who would know, has called him a faker.

    Confused yet?

    Having seen Hatsumi in the flesh: The man has the skills. Whether they come from his training in the 9 ryu-ha, or from his days as a Judo champion (he was a big name in Judo back in the 1960's), I couldnt tell you.

    MY theory: The Bujinkan expanded way too fast (in the wake of the 80's ninja craze), and people who should never have been instructors were given certification. Hatsumi, being located in Japan, had no idea of the carnage taking place in the outside World. Result: lots of crap representatives of the Bujinkan.
    SevenStar: It's hilarious seeing people's reactions when they see a big, black dude with a sword walking toward them.

    Masterkiller: Especially when they're at the ATM.

    WTF? How did we go from the White Haired Devil strangling and beating guys to death in a teahouse, to Mr Miyagi and Jhoon Rhee?
    .

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