Bujutsu and Budo

[blackmantis]

Hello everyone,

I am 17 and have been practising martial arts since I was 13. I train in 8 Step Mantis and Xingyi and love them both. Because I am very involved in both Japanese culture and the Japanese community in my city, I would like to become involved in Japanese martial arts.

Aikido and Aikijutsu both appeal as I think they would be sufficiently different to what I'm training in at the moment, but really I'm not sure which style to become interested in. I've heard mixed reports of Bujinkan Ninjutsu, and other styles (like Shintaido) I don't know anything about. I am not particularly interested in Judo or Kendo as they look fairly sports orientated and I would like to keep training in an unarmed style.

I am going to continue practising my mantis and xingyi but would be interested in if anyone has any advice regarding Japanese martial arts!

Many thanks!

S

[wiz cool c]

Hi I can help you. I have a Black Belt in Bujinkan Budo Taijitsu. I trained in it for 9 years. It is a great style but the people in bujinkan are 100% A holes. There is no form a free fighting in the Bujinkan . Every thing is two man Kata and drills. People for some reason always want to act like teachers when you train with them. It is so bad that I had a white belt once tell me what to do while I was a black belt. It is out of hand. Try the Genbukan they seem to have stricter rules about how to act durring training. Also there techneques look alot crisper. I do Internal kung fu and judo now. Judo may be a sport but you will gain usable skill from it. Judo is a very effective fighting art. I throw people in kung fu all the time with the most basic judo throws.

[Finny]

Blackmantis - where do you live? Unless you live in Japan your options will be limited according to your location, but I'm sure I can help in some way, depending on where you are.

[Wood Dragon]

Shintaido? Don't. Hare Krishna meets Ki-Aikido....


Judo is excellent for combative purposes, as well as sport.

If you live within range of a Kyokushin Dojo, go. It's a highly combative form of Karate, which practices full contact (no fist-to-face) sparring, no pads.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi blackmantis,

I agree judo would be very good, but it always depends upon the school and the instructors as well. I have trained in both Aikijutsu and Aikido. Both have their benefits and detriments. I like the joint locking, and throws of Aikido, but some schools are too passive. Aikijutsu will get you sued if you ever have to use it, (also depends on the instructor) it will primarily teach you to toss someone on their head breaking their neck, or break an arm. This would be considered excessive force in all but life threatening circumstances. Judo is more easily transferred to the real world, than either Aikido or Aikijutusu. Judo also has joint locking and grappling as well.

[blackmantis]

Thank you very much for all your help that is very interesting.

What is the difference between Genbukan and Bujikan? I've also heard of "Jinenkan" or something like that.

I didn't realise Aikijutsu was so extreme! What are everyone's views on Jujutsu?

I'm probably moving down to London in September if that helps?


Thank you!!

S

[Mr Punch]

Aikijutsu will get you sued if you ever have to use it, (also depends on the instructor) it will primarily teach you to toss someone on their head breaking their neck, or break an arm. This would be considered excessive force in all but life threatening circumstances. Judo is more easily transferred to the real world, than either Aikido or Aikijutusu.

By that logic, aikido would get you sued too. The only difference between good aikido and aikijutsu is that you don't crank the finish on so hard in aikido... on the street the result would be the same. You don't rely on pain compliance, you grab it wrench it lock it break it. I also disagree with your assumption that judo is any 'safer' than aikido or -jutsu... if you throw somebody with most judo throws on to his head or back on a concrete street, against a kerb, against a wall, between two parked cars you're still gonna **** up his day just as much.

I didn't realise Aikijutsu was so extreme! What are everyone's views on Jujutsu?

Aikijutsu is certainly no more hardcore than any other martial art. Koryu aikijutsu has a few more throws and locks (sometimes outlawed in mainstream aikido), and groundwork (there are pictures on Jason Delucia's site of Ueshiba, the founder of aikido, doing a guillotine, an armbar and a choke from a side mount whilst practising daito-ryu aikijujutsu).

Ironically, it also has better internal connectiveness exercises than most aikido (which supposedly concentrates on those things - some people call them ki development exercises, but they are nothing mystical: essentially ways of training connective muscles and their interactions with the ligaments and tendons). Some of these exercises are not even commonly practised in koryu nowadays for some reason: For example, Takeda and Kimura of daito-ryu used to swear by shiko, the sumo exercise where they lift their legs like a peeing dog... but precious few people practice that anymore, even over here. You'll be exceptionally lucky to find good aikijujutsu in London or anywhere in the UK, though I have heard of Finny's recommendation.

As for the difference between aikijutsu and jujutsu, there isn't much. Depending on which koryu scrolls you read one is an offshoot of the other. They certainly seem to have developed parallel to each other. Some old aikijutsu is called aikijujutsu. The main difference is the way they view kuzushi, the principle of unbalancing. Don't have time to go into it now, sorry!

[Asia]

Hello everyone,

I am 17 and have been practising martial arts since I was 13. I train in 8 Step Mantis and Xingyi and love them both. Because I am very involved in both Japanese culture and the Japanese community in my city, I would like to become involved in Japanese martial arts.

Aikido and Aikijutsu both appeal as I think they would be sufficiently different to what I'm training in at the moment, but really I'm not sure which style to become interested in. I've heard mixed reports of Bujinkan Ninjutsu, and other styles (like Shintaido) I don't know anything about. I am not particularly interested in Judo or Kendo as they look fairly sports orientated and I would like to keep training in an unarmed style.

I am going to continue practising my mantis and xingyi but would be interested in if anyone has any advice regarding Japanese martial arts!

Many thanks!

S

Bujinkan, and other Xkans, do not really teach ninjutsu. The majority of the material taught come form Gyokko Ryu Koshijutsu, Koto Ryu Koppojutsu, Kukishin Ryu (take your pick from bojutsu to bikenjutsu). Of the 9 schools only 3 are listed as ninjutsu and two are debateable, but thats another thread. If you are intrested in classical JMA its not bad but I would suggest the Jinenkan because it doesn't use the "Ninja"(which is greatly misunderstood) theme alot.

Shintaido is nice but more towards the "new age hippie" side as opposed to being a fighting art.

Judo is the best on the list thus far. Sport oriented or not I have personally used Judo in more real fights than any other MA that I have done, and thats alot. Learning to introduce pple to the ground at a high rate of speed will always be a valuable skill in fighting.

Aikido.......well erh just pass it. Seriously the level of A holeness is up there with the Bujinkan. You find many MA snoobs in Aikido with little to be snooby about. A BJJ student might be more harsh and vocal about their art but they are always willing to get on the mat and show you first hand. The same can't be said for Aikido. Plus I've seen that most pple who do Aikido think that if they train hard enough they will somehow turn Japanese.(This can be said bout the Buj as well). Its really silly.


My personable recommendation is if you want to take a JMA and want effective training then take Kyokushin Karate and Judo. If you want more of an historical context then look into so TRUE Koryu arts. (By this I mean don't just take the persons word for it if its koryu or not. Research).

[The Xia]

The whole Bujinkan thing is complex, to say the least. Takamatsu referred to himself as a Ninja. Asia is correct that 3 Ryu are called Ninjutsu in Bujinkan. However, the Koryu organizations have given Hatsumi issues. Out of curiosity, would you say that Bujinkan has nothing to do with Ninpo? I've heard lots of positives about Hatsumi, and lots of negative about other Bujinkan sensei. It seems to me that the Ninja Craze of the 80s gave Hatsumi alot of publicity and alot of unqualified people became licensed.

[The Xia]

Read about the history of various Jujutsu Ryu and you will see plenty of real fighting. Read about someone like Sokaku Takeda. History dissproves this claim that TMA is a mere "cultural hobby".

[BigPandaBear]

Read about the history of various Jujutsu Ryu and you will see plenty of real fighting. Read about someone like Sokaku Takeda. History dissproves this claim that TMA is a mere "cultural hobby".

Sokaku Takeda being part of a TMA really means nothing, what matters is how the individual exponent uses his art in his environment.

If you're a cop, soldier, or a fighter using Daito Ryu Aikijutsu, then no, you're not a cultural hobbyist. The number of people in those professions who would use a TMA in a combat situation however is more than likely extremely small.

[Asia]

Read about the history of various Jujutsu Ryu and you will see plenty of real fighting. Read about someone like Sokaku Takeda. History dissproves this claim that TMA is a mere "cultural hobby".

I greatly disagree.

When Tekeda was using Daito Ryu it wasn't a TMA. It wasn't practiced like so called TMA are not. Its primary goal was FIGHTING. It wasn't playing Japanese dress up and pretend to battle. This is what the majority of MArtist today do. TMA get talked down on because many of the methods of combat are no longer done. Kukishin Ryu was noted for fighting at sea. For that they adopted wides low stances for stability when using Bo, Jo, and katana. We don't fight like that anymore so the main reason to continue training like that is for a cultural or historical hobby.

If you're a cop, soldier, or a fighter using Daito Ryu Aikijutsu, then no, you're not a cultural hobbyist. The number of people in those professions who would use a TMA in a combat situation however is more than likely extremely small.

Absolutely correct. The mindset and enviorment of the training is totally different. When its time to for a Combatives class we don't bow we don't dress up. We have are own (sub)cultrual norms that we apply to it. (ie you address each other by rank and last name. We shake or slap hand before sparring, etc) This is different than how TMA are practiced because they bring in alot of things that are outside their cultural and temporal norms.

[The Xia]

It is true that most Budoka of Japanense history were fighting with weaponry. This doesn't discredit the unarmed skills they developed though. People like to dismiss learning weapons by saying that no one is going to walk around with a Katana, etc. However, weapons training improves unarmed martial arts skill. It conditions the martial artist and weapon principles can be applied to unarmed combat. Sokaku Takeda applied swordsmanship to his unarmed style. And in a fight, you may have an object available to you that can be used as a weapon. Your weapons training will pay off at such a moment. Japanese customs are practiced in Budo because Budo is Japanese. That doesn't negate it's combat worthiness.

[Wood Dragon]

Almost all (except Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu?) of the Koryu were born in the Late Muromachi/Early Edo Periods, when everyone was nice to each other (on pain of death), and all actually developed in that Period.

None were developed to handle the battlefields of the Sengoku Jidai. Rather, they were developed from the skillset that existed at the end of the Warrring States Period, to train men who did not have any experience in war. Two different things, entirely.

The tranquility of the Period was what stimulated the codification of the Koryu as coherent ryu, in the first place.

The current practitioners are more guardians of a cultural treasure than fighters. They will tell you this themselves.

Form following function, the techniques contained within the jujutsu, say, Tatsumi-ryu*, will be quite effective. There will not be any surprises for someone familiar with Judo, though.



*- Individual Koryu are not single-aspect systems like Karate or Judo. They often contain every skillset a soldier or Samurai was supposed to possess. Tatsumi-ryu, for example, includes:

kenjutsu (odachi, kodachi, nito, fukuro shinai); iai (odachi); yawara; sojutsu; bojutsu (rokushaku bo, hanbo); shurikenjutsu; hojojutsu; shudan sentoho; monomi.

Also, each Koryu has it's own vocabulary, so terms do not neccessarily cross over.

[blackmantis]

Would you guys reccomend Yoshinkan Aikido? It's meant to be pretty effective - don't Tokyo Police practise this art??

S