Bujutsu and Budo

[Finny]

I guess I wasn't as clear as would have liked. What I meant (overall) was Hatsumi is skilled and his teachers were identified in their day as ninja. Who cares what he calls himself. What is a ninja today? If you teach martial arts and combine stealth, what is wrong with taking on the mantle? I mean some people act like monks, others act like samurai, why not a ninja?

The difference is - the folks that claim to teach 'samurai' arts (usually) have a legitimate lineage for their art. Monks have an ancient history. Descendents of Buke have a rich and extensive history. Koryu have a rich and extensive history

Are you saying Hatsumi was not given teaching credential from Nawa or that Nawa was not a ninja?

Both. Not saying anything about Obata, but as I said - everyone associated with Nawa, including the man himself, repeatedly stated that he was never taught or practised ninjutsu.

You will never see me argue that the Bujinkan history is 100% or that all Bujinkan schools are amazing. I do find it funny that people go after the Bujinkan as the epitomy of frauds when BS is liberally sprinkled throughout MA, and the Bujinkan is not the worst culprit.

I'm not saying that the Bujinkan is the epitomy of fraud - as I and others said earlier, Takamatsu was a legit expert in both Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu. The acts of others are no excuse.

Hatsumi's lack of documentation....Hatsumi and Takamatsu at one point were not challenged on their word for better or worse. When asked documents were shown. These documents were housed in a museum. The museum caught fire and the documents were destroyed. Hatsumi and Takamatsu recreated the documents and scrolls from memory. Everybody comes out of the woodwork that has as an axe to grind and says,"No documents= not a real art." The fire is well recorded. The location of the documents was well recorded. The status of the oringinal is admitted.

Not exactly.

Hatsumi wasn't around when the fire occured, and no-one had challenged Takamatsu to produce documentation because at the time, he was a practitioner of the two arts he legitimately dedicated his life to - HTYR and KTH.

Fire destroyed the Kuki family residence - destroying the Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho densho. Takamatsu reproduced them for the Kuki family.

Again - that is Kukishin Ryu, NOT anything to do with ninjutsu.

No-one disputes the fact that Takamatsu was an expert in Kukishin Ryu and Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu.

Consider too, Hatsumi might believe every word he says even if it were to be proven to be 100% false. Perhaps the deception goes back a generation earlier? How can we prove it did not?

If you think the fishy story invalidates all that could be learned from a talented guy like Hatsumi, than so be it.

Peace

Perhaps I wasn't clear - I never said anything about "invalidating all that could be learned" from Hatsumi.

I simply said - Hatsumi's ninjutsu arts have no historical verification and were likely a creation of Takamatsu. It sticks in my craw that with his outstanding marketing skills, and the popularity of his art, he is regarded by the mainstream as "the only legit ninjutsu guy" (as well as the offshoots of the Bujinkan)

His version of ninjutsu history is often the version you see in low-class popular martial arts books, and nearly everyone who gets interested in ninjutsu buys one of his books and takes him for a legit ninja.

I just like to present the alternative viewpoint - That his teacher was an expert teacher in two koryu - Hontai Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu - and may have seen or learned some others (Asayama Ichiden Ryu for example) that he passed on to Mr. Hatsumi.

But the 'ninjutsu' ryuha were most likely invented by Takamatsu.

[Stranger]

Finny,

I seems like we are talking by each other. I am not saying that you said that everything about Hatsumi is worthless. It seemed like you were saying that I wrote somewhere that Hatsumi teaches koryu ninjutsu. In response I reexpressed my opinion, which seems to be like yours in this area. I, would add, that Hatsumi is not claiming to teach koryu style. He is pretty up front in his writing that he sees it as a living art that has to evolve or become only as relevant as SCA.

I was told a different story regarding the fire. I was told that it was Hatsumi's first ninja museum he opened, and he lost everything. I admit that I have no personal knowledge as to whether the burned out building I saw in the Japanese newspaper clipping was Hatsumi's museum, the museum you wrote about, or a building that has nothing to do with any of this.

Regarding Hatsumi and Nawa, once again I heard a different story. The version I heard was that Nawa gave Hatsumi teaching credentials, but when Hatsumi left the ryu he formerly asked (ordered?) Hatsumi to no longer teach the material, and Hatsumi agreed.

http://www.shinkendo.com/nawa.html

Obata wrote briefly about Nawa in "The Naked Blade" and referred to him as his instructor in ninjutsu, a ninjutsu 'more authentic than the modern schools known to the public' (to paraphrase). It might be that Nawa teaches something closed doors that enters the area of ninjutsu?

I know that the real koryu people have serious documentation and when they call themselves bushi it has some weight, my point was that many non-koryu schools also use these archaic class titles, yet they seem not to be targetted with as much frequency and venom.

Any way you slice it, neither of us is saying the Bujinkan's history is 100% fact. You say it is BS except for two ryu. I say it might be legit for two ryu, possibly more, but it is unprovable beyond the two.

We both say there is some skill possessed by Hatsumi (I believe quite a bit). We both say that not all of his students have benefitted from it (although some have).

You say Hatsumi's potentially false claims are a bad thing, I say "yeah", but I don't think one should mind too much if the tales are false and the history is off if your learning and having fun.

One last point for reasonable doubt...I know that all koryu schools possess historical documents, but what if one school didn't. Maybe it was a family art or secret art or maybe the documents were lost. Does this mean the art didn't exist in the past or does it mean that the art does not fit the common pattern of historical ryu practices? We assume the lack of documents means deception when in reality it might mean nothing. Hatsumi maybe cannot prove that his ninjutsu is ancient by our accepted standard, but is that enough to say is is 100% case closed?

Other "cool" arts with distorted/questionable or challenged histories: hsing-i, bagua, Daito ryu, serak, kali, baji, taichi, kuntao-silat, systema and on and on and on (not bad company in terms of fighting skill)

Legends, fables, and MA are often intertwined.

[SevenStar]

I am not particularly interested in Judo or Kendo as they look fairly sports orientated and I would like to keep training in an unarmed style.

combat wise, you will get more from one year of judo than you will from several years of aikido and possibly aikijutsu as well. Don't overlook judo because it's a "sport".

[Wood Dragon]

I feel it should be pointed out, again, that Hatsumi was a high-level Judoka prior to meeting Takematsu.


I've not seen many that will dispute Hatsumi's personal skill, merely the historical veracity of his claims.

My personal beef is that, much like Shotokan, the Bujinkan has lots of incompetent instructors who pass on their lack of skill, and give the organization a bad name. The overextended lunging-punch (being performed by people who should know better) I referenced is only one item.

[Wood Dragon]

1) The long lunging punch is step one in the learning process. It gives lots of energy and offers a longer reaction time. .

Not even close.

1. The people I am criticizing are not beginners.

2. No one learns to strike like that, and no one attacks like that. Ergo, learning to defend against it is ludicrous, even for a basic introduction.

3. I've seen that technique used, along with other (even worse) stilted techniques, in demos by folks who should know better. To include Tai Kais (I went to the Atlanta TK).

4. Hatsumi and Nagato don't do it when they instruct. That alone should tell you something.

[Stranger]

1. I said GOOD shihan would move passed this basic training. I did not say SENIOR or VETERAN shihan. It is irrelevant if you saw Bujinkan people that were not beginners doing this, becaue as I have already stated there are less skilled Bujinkan instructors out there. Ones that only train in the basic setting would fall under the banner of less skilled likely.

2. I have trained in numerous JMA styles where that is exactly like the punches, or other equally extended mechanics, fed to beginners .

3. A demo may have the intention of making a principle more apparent and may be done with bigger movements so the paying seminar attendees can pick up on the mechanics. Once you see the basic it is your duty to experiment. What is Hatsumi always urging, "variations on techniques" and "play with techniques until you really get them ingrained". It is called cognitive learning and in some circles is believed to produce much better results than traditional teaching. (just a theory, choose as you wish)

4. I have never seen Nagato, but I owned a video at one time with Hatsumi on it. The ukes attacking him punched this extended way at times but also mixed it up with tighter less telegraphed shots- once again variations and a progression towards greater challenges.

[BigPandaBear]

Ninjutsu is a wonderful marketing ploy by Hatsumi that has made him quite a bit of money and garnered him quite a bit of fame over the years.

The man has a degree in theatre afterall....

[Blacktiger]

Hatsumi openly admits that he likes to create kaos within his group-he likes it that way.

Loves to watch everyone scramble, this pops up in a few books written by people who train close with him.

Likes to push your buttons

Dont forget though that regardless of whats going on politics wise he is very high level martial artist.

I think anyone who cant see that needs a head check

[Stranger]

Anybody know anything about this?

http://www9.big.or.jp/~koppo/

[Stranger]

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