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Thread: Bujutsu and Budo

  1. #31
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    Handing out rank before it has necessarily been earned is part of Hatsumi's approach to belt rankings. He learned this from Takamatsu [Hatsumi did NOT start that trend]. As to the Bujinkan being so big that Hatsumi doesn't know what is going on, that is incorrect. This is intentional on Hatsumi's part. After administering the 5th degree balack belt test to the 1000th successful recipient, Hatsumi was praised for being so prolific as to have so many students reach this rank. Hatsumi's frank response was words to the effect of, "Yes, 500 good ones and 500 bad ones." Rank means absolutely d1ck to Hatsumi, this is why he keeps on changing how many belts he offeres and how long they take to get. The people that worry about rank aren't getting what he is trying to say.

    It has also been mentioned that Hatsumi only teaches the eclectic Bujinkan budo taijutsu. Having scene a Bujinkan syllabus, as handed to me by Jack Hoban, the ryu are taught individually after shodan. Each rank after shodan focuses on a particular ryu. Hatsumi does not publicly teach a lot of stuff he knows, but there are students, that he has shown it all to.
    Monkey vs. Robot

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stranger
    Rank means absolutely d1ck to Hatsumi, this is why he keeps on changing how many belts he offeres and how long they take to get. The people that worry about rank aren't getting what he is trying to say.

    .
    Understood.

    However, it screws up the folks who -havent- been around long enough to know what's going on. If -I- decided to study the system, I know who to go to (Hoban, Askew, etc), because I keep my ear to the ground. Bob Somebody, who just heard of the Bujinkan, is unable to differentiate between the "500 good ones" and the "500 bad ones". They are all upper Dan grades. How is he to know otherwise?

    It allows the bottom feeders to camoflage themselves from outsiders, and worse, their own students.
    SevenStar: It's hilarious seeing people's reactions when they see a big, black dude with a sword walking toward them.

    Masterkiller: Especially when they're at the ATM.

    WTF? How did we go from the White Haired Devil strangling and beating guys to death in a teahouse, to Mr Miyagi and Jhoon Rhee?
    .

  3. #33
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    A very valid concern. I think Hatsumi inherited teachings of a very small following and desired to make them more wide spread. If you walk into a dojo run by the 500 good ones, you are set. If you walk into a dojo run by the 500 bad ones, you may blindly stay, leave in disgust, or be exposed to somebody better in the Bujinkan who you would rather study under. I believe Hatsumi has added up how this approach helps his goals, how it hurts them, and made his choice that this apporach would guarantee the greatest number of good ones regardless of the cost. If things were extremely strict, maybe we wouldn't be exposed to Hatsumi due to only a handful of training locations. Like I said, I find the concern valid but I understand Hatsumi's way is just another way of doing things.
    Monkey vs. Robot

  4. #34
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    It was only a short time ago that Hatsumi opened up the art to the westerner and it was no mistake that Stephen Hayes was promoted to 10th dan etc - to spread Ninjutsu into the west.

    I have heard through the grapevine that its all going to close up agian as Hatsumi is happy with the growth but does not want the art to go super nova.

    Its funny I have heard from many sources in the game that the videos and dvds that are released have wrong steps and moves thrown in on purpose.

  5. #35
    Quoting Wood Dragon:
    >8 of the 9 systems (ryu) cannot be traced back prior to the emergence of Takematsu. One of the 9 is, last I heard, considered (by outside experts) to be identical to a ryu of the same name from another system entirely, which CAN trace it's lineage back several centuries (and is thus a Koryu).<

    That's incorrect. Both Kukishin ryu and all variations of Yoshin ryu (Hontai Takagi Yoshin, Hontai Yoshin, etc.) are considered koryu. If you want to get nit picky, Hatsumi's kukishinden happo bikenjutsu is not really koryu as it's a composite of techniques from other Kuki family arts. But Kukishin ryu itself is very old. As is any variation of Yoshin ryu.

    I've heard an 'expert' claim similar things as to what you're saying in that paragraph as well, I believe it was a Russian guy with a PhD who wrote a book about Japanese martial arts. It was quite obvious he only made a passing glance at bujinkan's material before writing about it, as most of his research was way off base (I wouldn't use any of the information he provided).

    Togakure ryu, according to some people, has strong edo period style movement in it. Lack of proof does not mean lack of existence. In addition to this, it has been verified that Daisuke Nishina did exist about 900 years ago and was named in an ancient text. It does not indicate whether or not he knew Togakure ryu, however it's a starting point and it leans in favor of Togakure ryu being real. Furthermore, Takamatu's teacher's grave (Toda) appears to have been found in Kobe, and further research is going to be conducted.

    As for Dr. Karl Friday, he has publicly stated that he believes it's likely Gyokko and Koto ryu are as old as their lineages claim.

    The article that was posted has been spin doctored by Mr. Skoss and his cronies. I can find you a posting of Mr. Skoss's that will make anything he says seem a little less credible. He has his own agenda, and it does not involve proper, unbiased research of the people or ryuha he attempts to discredit. Skoss has publicly stated he will not accept any evidence of ninjutsu as being real. So regardless of what proof people can provide, it's apparently not good enough for Mr. Skoss.

    A lot of people (who don't know any better) get riled up when they see people like Hatsumi with 9sokeships or Tanemura with even more, and a truck load of menkyo kaiden. People who don't really know Japanese martial arts history think that it takes a lifetime to master even 1 ryu.. Well, the reality is it doesn't. It takes about 4 to 7 years to master most ryu (achieve menkyo kaiden). This is extremely common, especially among people who do martial arts full time.

    It's like being a tradesman. You start out in your first trade. It can take a few years before you're really good. But you do your apprenticeship and finally become a journeyman, then after a few more years you're a real expert. And the interesting thing is you start to be able to do all kinds of other trades in even less time, your apprenticeship time is cut down. Some tradesmen have dozens of trades under their belts, but they're not 90 years old either. I have a friend who's 35 and has 14 trades under his belt.

    As for Hatsumi and creativity (by the way that very subject has become a huge topic on another popular martial arts forum), I am of the belief that Hatsumi is not really teaching things in the same way he was taught by Takamatsu, or as Takamatsu was taught by his teachers. Hatsumi is very eccentric, and he's also very good at marketing. He has created a very loyal base of followers who are almost cultish at times and lash out the moment anyone questions anything Hatsumi is doing. Hatsumi's claims to some ryu (like gikan ryu) are disputed. Kukishinden happo bikenjutsu is also somewhat disputed, it appears to be a composite system of other Kukishin arts created by Takamatsu for Hatsumi.'

    Regarding Hatsumi and ranking. It's very important that people do not compare ranks within ninpo to ranks in other systems. Ranks in other systems belong to their respective systems. They do not apply to the ninpo organizations, because the ninpo organizations use their own rank systems. The requirements per rank may be totally different. For example, in kendo, you must be a certain age before achieving a certain rank, despite what your technical ability is. In the the genbukan, your rank is limited by your technical ability and how many classes you've attended. In the bujinkan, there is no real limit. So keep this in mind, it's important.

    In my opinion the genbukan and jinenkan are better organizations to join than bujinkan. I was a student of bujinkan before, I am in the genbukan now. With bujinkan there is no guarantee you are receiving good instruction.

  6. #36
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    I knew about Yoshinryu being authenticated, but hadnt heard about Kukishin.

    Lack of proof does not prove the negative, true. I wasnt addressing that, just that Hatsumi has been upfront with the fact that there is not enough hard evidence to be had, ergo no membership in the Nippon Kobudo Shinkokai (or the other organization, which I can never remember).

    Meik Skoss has said he won't address the Koryu-ness of any ryuha that isnt a member of the above organizations. Which is the benchmark for any claim of Koryu-ness, if only by virtue of all the established Koryu schools being members. They require hard proof, up to and including carbon-14 dating of documents. Can't meet that standard? No hard feelings or accusation of fraud, you just cannot join.

    Skoss' stance seems very reasonable, as it was members of the Bujinkan who approached -him- about why he made no mention of the Takamatsuden ryuha (I was a fly on the wall for said exchange).

    The Ranking issue is thus: Hatsumi adopted (as a pre-Meiji system would have the classical ranking system, not kyu/dan) the Kano-system of colored belts and kyu-dan ranks. This is understandable, as he was a Judo champion prior to his meeting Takamatsu. Others, however, used it before him, and certain definitions were set in stone.

    He can say it means whatever he wants it to, but outsiders see the dan ranks and think Kano-style dan (expert). So when a 5th Dan of the Bujinkan sucks, it reflects badly on the Bujinkan, even if the rank means nothing inside the Bujinkan. When observers see someone getting inflated ranks off the shelf, it screams McDojo. Thus, the Bujinkan has no leg to stand on when they protest that they are being tarred with a broad brush.

    Not to mention this must cause resentment internally, in people who train hard then see some fool getting the same recognition for much less effort or skill.

    Some of the real damage occurs when the mook with the unearned Godan uses it to attract students. One mook who doesnt have the skill commensurate with his rank becomes twenty who dont. Viral decay of the system.

    For myself: I was interested in what the Bujinkan had to offer, a few years ago. An aquaintance, Lee Drew of Birmingham AL, who is a Bujinkan instructor (good one too), showed me a copy of the yearly curriculum promulgated by the honbu. It was.....extensive. I handed it back, said "best of luck with that" and stayed with Kyokushin. Mix & match from 9 different ryuha is a bit too much variety.
    Last edited by Wood Dragon; 02-06-2006 at 10:06 PM.
    SevenStar: It's hilarious seeing people's reactions when they see a big, black dude with a sword walking toward them.

    Masterkiller: Especially when they're at the ATM.

    WTF? How did we go from the White Haired Devil strangling and beating guys to death in a teahouse, to Mr Miyagi and Jhoon Rhee?
    .

  7. #37
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    Which is the benchmark for any claim of Koryu-ness, if only by virtue of all the established Koryu schools being members.
    Sorry to nitpick, but it is my understanding that there are plenty of authentic koryu which are not members of either organisation, for a variety of reasons.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finny
    Sorry to nitpick, but it is my understanding that there are plenty of authentic koryu which are not members of either organisation, for a variety of reasons.
    Probably quite true.

    However, many researchers (to include Skoss) use the member lists as a benchmark, as those schools within the organization are guaranteed to have their bona fides. As Skoss is one of the "faces" of Koryu research, he caught flak from some members of the Bujinkan for not including them in his published material. His response was that he referenced only those schools within the aforementioned organizations, and that was that. Some of the petitioners took that as a dismissal of -them-, rather than a dismissal of the subject. More or less one sided E-feud ensues.

    Lastly, unless Hatsumi completely reorganized the Bujinkan curriculum and praxis, they arent getting into the above organizations. Why? Because it isnt enough simply to teach a pre-Meiji system. It has to be taught in the accepted "period" manner and aesthetic. Colored belts, kyu/dan rankings, Kano-style instructional format, non-differentiated transmission (not teaching the 9 ryuha as seperate schools).

    That's what -really- kills the hope of Bujinkan being "officially" recognized as a non-Gendai system. If you think the cats in the SCA are nazis about being "period", wait until you get a load of the folks from Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu, as well as other Koryu schools. Conservative doesnt describe it. Museum curators (that's not a criticism, it's how they describe themselves).


    End of the Day: Does it matter that the Takumatsu-den arent considered Koryu? Not to Hatsumi, evidently.
    SevenStar: It's hilarious seeing people's reactions when they see a big, black dude with a sword walking toward them.

    Masterkiller: Especially when they're at the ATM.

    WTF? How did we go from the White Haired Devil strangling and beating guys to death in a teahouse, to Mr Miyagi and Jhoon Rhee?
    .

  9. #39
    Bujinkan is gendai. It was created in the late 60's. The ryu of Bujinkan are "koryu", although technically not filling all of the requirements of the hard fixed term Mr Skoss likes to slap around.

    I would say that anyone who thinks Takamatsu invented all the ryu he had is an idiot. And I don't just mean that metaphorically. If anyone here thinks that, you're an idiot. There's just too many different ryu, too much differences and too much history.

    If we go back to Takamatsu's teacher of the ninpo ryu, Toda, we're getting into the realm of the early meiji period and possibly even late edo period. If we go back 1 more teacher, you've got yourself a koryu simply based on age.

    Considering the fact that the ninpo styles seem to be influenced by early to mid edo period movement style, it seems very likely that they are koryu. It also seems likely that they are somewhat different from how they were 500 years ago, but the "meat" of them is probably the same.

    As for the major koryu organizations and being legitimate and all that nonsense. There are so many actual koryu who stay away from those organizations it's not even funny. The koryu orgs are loaded with politics and backstabbing and all kinds of garbage best left to salarymen in navy blue pinstripe suits.

    I'm surprised you didn't know about Kukishin ryu. Some of the Kuki scrolls are extremely ancient and describe directly techniques from various Kukishin ryuha (including one scroll which may be responsible for the reconstruction of the full Togakure ryu)

  10. #40
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    Btt.

    Btt.
    SevenStar: It's hilarious seeing people's reactions when they see a big, black dude with a sword walking toward them.

    Masterkiller: Especially when they're at the ATM.

    WTF? How did we go from the White Haired Devil strangling and beating guys to death in a teahouse, to Mr Miyagi and Jhoon Rhee?
    .

  11. #41
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    Why are you resurrecting this old thread wood dragon? You didn't add anything...

  12. #42
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    I know it's an old thread, but for clarification's sake.

    Quote Originally Posted by paradoxbox
    The ryu of Bujinkan are "koryu", although technically not filling all of the requirements of the hard fixed term Mr Skoss likes to slap around.
    Not just Mr. Skoss - the term has a meaning, as used by the Japanese themselves. 7 of the 9 ryu Hatsumi claims are not koryu as defined by the people who use the term - it's that simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by paradoxbox
    I would say that anyone who thinks Takamatsu invented all the ryu he had is an idiot.
    Take some reading comprehension classes. Hontai (Takagi) Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu are koryu. Takamatsu was an acknowledged senior exponent of these two arts (though NOT the head). The other ryu he passed to Hatsumi appeared out of thin air.

    And Watatani Kiyoshi wrote in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, that his friend Takamatsu did indeed "make up" his "ninpo ryuha" from childhood ninja games.

    Quote Originally Posted by paradoxbox
    If we go back to Takamatsu's teacher of the ninpo ryu, Toda, we're getting into the realm of the early meiji period and possibly even late edo period. If we go back 1 more teacher, you've got yourself a koryu simply based on age.
    Except that there is no evidence that Toda Masamitsu even existed. Nor is there any evidence that his predecessor (whoever that is) existed... and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by paradoxbox
    Considering the fact that the ninpo styles seem to be influenced by early to mid edo period movement style, it seems very likely that they are koryu. It also seems likely that they are somewhat different from how they were 500 years ago, but the "meat" of them is probably the same.
    What? they "seem to be influenced by Edo period style", so they are probably koryu? Yeah - that's a convincing argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by paradoxbox
    As for the major koryu organizations and being legitimate and all that nonsense. There are so many actual koryu who stay away from those organizations it's not even funny. The koryu orgs are loaded with politics and backstabbing and all kinds of garbage best left to salarymen in navy blue pinstripe suits.
    So you say. Nice ad hominem argument. If, however, the Bujinkan was not a member of these organisations because they are "loaded with politics and backstabbing" - why did Hatsumi try to gain membership?

    Quote Originally Posted by paradoxbox
    I'm surprised you didn't know about Kukishin ryu. Some of the Kuki scrolls are extremely ancient and describe directly techniques from various Kukishin ryuha (including one scroll which may be responsible for the reconstruction of the full Togakure ryu)
    The Kukishin Ryu is Kukishin Ryu, and has no bearing on the legitimacy of the other 'ninjutsu' arts Hatsumi claims.

    The fact is, there are other, senior lines of both Kukishin Ryu and Hontai Yoshin Ryu. Hatsumi recieved certification in these two koryu from Takamatsu. That much is indisputable.

    BUT:

    1. He doesn't teach them as koryu.

    and

    2. There is no evidence to suggest that the other 7 arts he claims are koryu. Feel free to believe his word - I'll wait on the evidence.

  13. #43
    Sorry to bring this back to my original question guys, I understand there are other issues here and thanks a lot for your advice but...

    I'm practising Xingyi and Bagua a LOT these days, and really enjoy the energy work and qigong-type exercises as well as the fighting abilities of these styles.

    Do any of the Japanese styles have well developed energy practises? Does Bujinkan? Aikido? Anything else?

    Bujinkan does look cool, but after everything you people have said here I might just stay away to be safe.


    (I practise Heibei Xingyi and Cheng Bagua if that helps at all)

    Many thanks my friends,

    S
    Black Mantis

  14. #44
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    It is my understanding that some of the koryu do have comprehensive energy and breathwork practises - Goto-Ha Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heihojutsu comes to mind.

    I don't know about Aikido - I doubt orthodox aikido would have sophisticated, complete qigong curricula, but I could well be wrong.

    I am quite sure that some of the more 'internal' oriented lines of Daito Ryu (Kodokai, Roppokai, Sagawa dojo) have serious energy/breath work practises.

  15. #45
    This lineage crap is part of the reason why I'd avoid traditional martial arts like the plague. Its utter and complete foolishness and one-up manship as people try to determine who is the "real deal".

    Take Judo vs any given Jujutsu style; Every legit Judo dojo is affiliated with the IJF in some way shape or form. All of Judo's official techniques are available on the internet or in books. The history of Judo is well known and recorded by objective sources. Meanwhile in Jujutsus you have word of mouth, wild historical tales, various splinter groups, and hidden techniques.

    Unfortunately traditional jutsus have this completely unjustified mystique around them where people believe that the old methods are somehow superior to modern methods that have been enhanced through the use of science and trial/error. Which is why you have so many frauds and phonies propping up in jujutsus who charge ridiculous prices for lackluster instruction.

    My advice to you would be to find a modern MMA karate style like Kyokushin and/or its derivatives. Take up a Judo class on the side to compliment your karate (if its not already being offered by the karate club), and you'll be doing a method superior to those old jutsu styles anyway.

    Now if you want to be a cultural hobbyist (i.e. a Ninja master), that's totally up to you.
    Last edited by BigPandaBear; 08-06-2006 at 08:58 AM.

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