Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 85

Thread: Bujutsu and Budo

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Augusta, GA
    Posts
    439
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmantis
    Hello everyone,

    I am 17 and have been practising martial arts since I was 13. I train in 8 Step Mantis and Xingyi and love them both. Because I am very involved in both Japanese culture and the Japanese community in my city, I would like to become involved in Japanese martial arts.

    Aikido and Aikijutsu both appeal as I think they would be sufficiently different to what I'm training in at the moment, but really I'm not sure which style to become interested in. I've heard mixed reports of Bujinkan Ninjutsu, and other styles (like Shintaido) I don't know anything about. I am not particularly interested in Judo or Kendo as they look fairly sports orientated and I would like to keep training in an unarmed style.

    I am going to continue practising my mantis and xingyi but would be interested in if anyone has any advice regarding Japanese martial arts!

    Many thanks!

    S
    Bujinkan, and other Xkans, do not really teach ninjutsu. The majority of the material taught come form Gyokko Ryu Koshijutsu, Koto Ryu Koppojutsu, Kukishin Ryu (take your pick from bojutsu to bikenjutsu). Of the 9 schools only 3 are listed as ninjutsu and two are debateable, but thats another thread. If you are intrested in classical JMA its not bad but I would suggest the Jinenkan because it doesn't use the "Ninja"(which is greatly misunderstood) theme alot.

    Shintaido is nice but more towards the "new age hippie" side as opposed to being a fighting art.

    Judo is the best on the list thus far. Sport oriented or not I have personally used Judo in more real fights than any other MA that I have done, and thats alot. Learning to introduce pple to the ground at a high rate of speed will always be a valuable skill in fighting.

    Aikido.......well erh just pass it. Seriously the level of A holeness is up there with the Bujinkan. You find many MA snoobs in Aikido with little to be snooby about. A BJJ student might be more harsh and vocal about their art but they are always willing to get on the mat and show you first hand. The same can't be said for Aikido. Plus I've seen that most pple who do Aikido think that if they train hard enough they will somehow turn Japanese.(This can be said bout the Buj as well). Its really silly.


    My personable recommendation is if you want to take a JMA and want effective training then take Kyokushin Karate and Judo. If you want more of an historical context then look into so TRUE Koryu arts. (By this I mean don't just take the persons word for it if its koryu or not. Research).
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Emperor of Baji!!!

    (Spellcheck by Chang Style Novice!)

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Augusta, GA
    Posts
    439
    I will add ot the discussion on my personal research on the ryuha.

    The 3 "ninjutsu" schools of the Bujinkan are Togakure Ryu, Kumogakure Ry, and Gyokushin Ryu.

    I've been looking into Gyokushin Ryu for sometime. To date I haven't found anything outside of the Xkans that says Gyokushin Ryu was a ninjutsu school. I have found Gyokushin Ryu Koppojutsu, and Gyokushin Ryu Jujutsu, but no ninjutsu.

    What made me doubt Gyokushin as ninjutsu i that both the JJ school and the "ninjutsu" school says the trademark of this school is SUTEMI WAZA (aka sacrafice throws). Now different schools have shared the same name and had no relation to each other but its a big coincodence that the school have the same name and have the same hallmark. Yoseikan founder, Minoru Mochizuki, stated that he trained Gyokushin Ryu JJ and said the sutemi waza was the strength of the school and he included them in his Yoseikan Budo. Respected MA historian and practioner, Ueno Takashi, was also a student of Takamatsu. He learned this school from him and it was listed as Koppojutsu. For some reaason Ueno's lineage is accepted as the actual lineage of the school and Hatsumi's is not. (Ueno's appears in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten). The current soke under the Ueno line is Kaminaga Shingemi. He is the 16th soke. Hatsumi is listed as the 21st soke but with alot of names missing from his lineage.
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Emperor of Baji!!!

    (Spellcheck by Chang Style Novice!)

  3. #48
    Asia.....

    I don't think its a good idea to turn this into a debate about the validity of Ninjutsu. I definitely think it'd be best reserved for another thread, because your insight in the matter seems to be spot-on.

    However, I've seen this type of debate spring up in other forums, and its not a pretty sight. I'm sure you know all about that though.

  4. #49
    The whole Bujinkan thing is complex, to say the least. Takamatsu referred to himself as a Ninja. Asia is correct that 3 Ryu are called Ninjutsu in Bujinkan. However, the Koryu organizations have given Hatsumi issues. Out of curiosity, would you say that Bujinkan has nothing to do with Ninpo? I've heard lots of positives about Hatsumi, and lots of negative about other Bujinkan sensei. It seems to me that the Ninja Craze of the 80s gave Hatsumi alot of publicity and alot of unqualified people became licensed.

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    West Oz
    Posts
    125
    Quote Originally Posted by BigPandaBear
    Unfortunately traditional jutsus have this completely unjustified mystique around them where people believe that the old methods are somehow superior to modern methods that have been enhanced through the use of science and trial/error. Which is why you have so many frauds and phonies propping up in jujutsus who charge ridiculous prices for lackluster instruction.
    A classic misnomer usually propounded by those who haven't been exposed to (ie. can't be bothered researching) genuine koryu arts.

    The thing is - true koryu arts are exceedingly rare outside Japan. They are easy to research these days. There are only a few left. If it aint one of the ones you can find a bit of info about on the net, it usually aint koryu.

    Most people claiming to teach "traditional samurai jujutsu" or "traditional aikijujutsu" or whatever are not teaching koryu arts - and these tend to be the ones charging ridiculous prices for lackluster instruction - as you said. IMHO those who are suckered by these people deserve to be so - for the reasons stated above.

    Just about every koryu exponent I have spoken to has gone to great lengths to state that the old methods are probably NOT 'somehow superior'. They are simply designed for different purposes, and are therefore different. In most instances these differences usually render them less appropriate for today's purposes.

    Lastly - with regards to koryu bugei - the fact is that the lineage is the whole point. Some folks see this as petty, but that's what the term means - a stream from the past. Typically those who have problems with lineage discussions are those who want to find a short cut around the issue, or simply can't be bothered putting in the effort to become a part of the 'stream'.

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Behind you!
    Posts
    6,163
    Quote Originally Posted by Finny
    It is my understanding that some of the koryu do have comprehensive energy and breathwork practises - Goto-Ha Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heihojutsu comes to mind.

    I don't know about Aikido - I doubt orthodox aikido would have sophisticated, complete qigong curricula, but I could well be wrong.

    I am quite sure that some of the more 'internal' oriented lines of Daito Ryu (Kodokai, Roppokai, Sagawa dojo) have serious energy/breath work practises.
    From my knowledge this is accurate.

    Most aikido's energetics are not an especially complete or logical system. The stuff directly from Ueshiba comes as much from obscure Shinto practise as from any koryu, and largely consists of a few breathing exercises. Their are some aiki scholars and teachers who would argue and write reams of discourse about the deoth of aiki breathing energetics in technical application, but while some of it is logical, frankly I suspect its origin.

    Having said that, some of its breathing exercises are quite good, and as I said before I like aiki, though I can well understand Asia's response as their are many stuffy wierdos in aiki too!

    My internals/koryu principles teacher comes from a hsingyi background and Sagawa's Daito line and mixes the two's breathing principles and general internal principles quite impressively, but he is quite eccentric and admits to having made most of these things up, or should I say, to having discovered the similarities. He does have a lot of skill however so I'm obviously not denigrating him.

    He is however in Japan: I don't think his approach is so common even over here even within Sagawa's minority, so in Europe I would certainly have my doubts.

    My advice is: give one of them a try. The aikido teachers you find will probably be insufferable prats anyway, which will effectively limit your choices!
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  7. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Finny
    A classic misnomer usually propounded by those who haven't been exposed to (ie. can't be bothered researching) genuine koryu arts.

    The thing is - true koryu arts are exceedingly rare outside Japan. They are easy to research these days. There are only a few left. If it aint one of the ones you can find a bit of info about on the net, it usually aint koryu.

    Most people claiming to teach "traditional samurai jujutsu" or "traditional aikijujutsu" or whatever are not teaching koryu arts - and these tend to be the ones charging ridiculous prices for lackluster instruction - as you said. IMHO those who are suckered by these people deserve to be so - for the reasons stated above.
    I couldn't disagree more. No one deserves to be suckered by a fraud. Its up to the various MA communities to make sure that the name of their respective arts is not sullied by frauds and pickpockets. If you know there's a group out there spreading bad MA and you do nothing about it, you're part of the problem.


    Just about every koryu exponent I have spoken to has gone to great lengths to state that the old methods are probably NOT 'somehow superior'. They are simply designed for different purposes, and are therefore different. In most instances these differences usually render them less appropriate for today's purposes.
    I hope you don't honestly believe that the classic Jujutsus were "battlefield arts" used to disarm Samurais from horseback or other such nonsense. That's a common misconception I see coming out of traditional MAs these days. They believe their respective style was born from the blood of war or some other garbage, when in reality nothing could be further from the truth.

    Lastly - with regards to koryu bugei - the fact is that the lineage is the whole point. Some folks see this as petty, but that's what the term means - a stream from the past. Typically those who have problems with lineage discussions are those who want to find a short cut around the issue, or simply can't be bothered putting in the effort to become a part of the 'stream'.
    I have problem with lineage discussions because it IS petty and ridiculous. There is little to be gained from such discussions because nothing is going to be done with the fradulant ryuha anyway. Look at what happened with the Xkans, they broke apart and now squabble like children over who's really doing "real Ninjutsu".

    As I told the original poster, its often better to stay away from TMAs altogether, unless your goal is to be a cultural hobbyist.

  8. #53

    BigPandaBear

    Read about the history of various Jujutsu Ryu and you will see plenty of real fighting. Read about someone like Sokaku Takeda. History dissproves this claim that TMA is a mere "cultural hobby".

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by The Xia
    Read about the history of various Jujutsu Ryu and you will see plenty of real fighting. Read about someone like Sokaku Takeda. History dissproves this claim that TMA is a mere "cultural hobby".
    Sokaku Takeda being part of a TMA really means nothing, what matters is how the individual exponent uses his art in his environment.

    If you're a cop, soldier, or a fighter using Daito Ryu Aikijutsu, then no, you're not a cultural hobbyist. The number of people in those professions who would use a TMA in a combat situation however is more than likely extremely small.

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Augusta, GA
    Posts
    439
    Quote Originally Posted by The Xia
    Read about the history of various Jujutsu Ryu and you will see plenty of real fighting. Read about someone like Sokaku Takeda. History dissproves this claim that TMA is a mere "cultural hobby".
    I greatly disagree.

    When Tekeda was using Daito Ryu it wasn't a TMA. It wasn't practiced like so called TMA are not. Its primary goal was FIGHTING. It wasn't playing Japanese dress up and pretend to battle. This is what the majority of MArtist today do. TMA get talked down on because many of the methods of combat are no longer done. Kukishin Ryu was noted for fighting at sea. For that they adopted wides low stances for stability when using Bo, Jo, and katana. We don't fight like that anymore so the main reason to continue training like that is for a cultural or historical hobby.

    If you're a cop, soldier, or a fighter using Daito Ryu Aikijutsu, then no, you're not a cultural hobbyist. The number of people in those professions who would use a TMA in a combat situation however is more than likely extremely small.
    Absolutely correct. The mindset and enviorment of the training is totally different. When its time to for a Combatives class we don't bow we don't dress up. We have are own (sub)cultrual norms that we apply to it. (ie you address each other by rank and last name. We shake or slap hand before sparring, etc) This is different than how TMA are practiced because they bring in alot of things that are outside their cultural and temporal norms.
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Emperor of Baji!!!

    (Spellcheck by Chang Style Novice!)

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Augusta, GA
    Posts
    439
    Quote Originally Posted by BigPandaBear
    Asia.....

    I don't think its a good idea to turn this into a debate about the validity of Ninjutsu. I definitely think it'd be best reserved for another thread, because your insight in the matter seems to be spot-on.

    However, I've seen this type of debate spring up in other forums, and its not a pretty sight. I'm sure you know all about that though.
    Fine.

    *packs up Ninja Notes and vanishes into thin air*
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Emperor of Baji!!!

    (Spellcheck by Chang Style Novice!)

  12. #57
    It is true that most Budoka of Japanense history were fighting with weaponry. This doesn't discredit the unarmed skills they developed though. People like to dismiss learning weapons by saying that no one is going to walk around with a Katana, etc. However, weapons training improves unarmed martial arts skill. It conditions the martial artist and weapon principles can be applied to unarmed combat. Sokaku Takeda applied swordsmanship to his unarmed style. And in a fight, you may have an object available to you that can be used as a weapon. Your weapons training will pay off at such a moment. Japanese customs are practiced in Budo because Budo is Japanese. That doesn't negate it's combat worthiness.

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    232
    Almost all (except Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu?) of the Koryu were born in the Late Muromachi/Early Edo Periods, when everyone was nice to each other (on pain of death), and all actually developed in that Period.

    None were developed to handle the battlefields of the Sengoku Jidai. Rather, they were developed from the skillset that existed at the end of the Warrring States Period, to train men who did not have any experience in war. Two different things, entirely.

    The tranquility of the Period was what stimulated the codification of the Koryu as coherent ryu, in the first place.

    The current practitioners are more guardians of a cultural treasure than fighters. They will tell you this themselves.

    Form following function, the techniques contained within the jujutsu, say, Tatsumi-ryu*, will be quite effective. There will not be any surprises for someone familiar with Judo, though.



    *- Individual Koryu are not single-aspect systems like Karate or Judo. They often contain every skillset a soldier or Samurai was supposed to possess. Tatsumi-ryu, for example, includes:

    kenjutsu (odachi, kodachi, nito, fukuro shinai); iai (odachi); yawara; sojutsu; bojutsu (rokushaku bo, hanbo); shurikenjutsu; hojojutsu; shudan sentoho; monomi.

    Also, each Koryu has it's own vocabulary, so terms do not neccessarily cross over.
    Last edited by Wood Dragon; 08-06-2006 at 04:30 PM.
    SevenStar: It's hilarious seeing people's reactions when they see a big, black dude with a sword walking toward them.

    Masterkiller: Especially when they're at the ATM.

    WTF? How did we go from the White Haired Devil strangling and beating guys to death in a teahouse, to Mr Miyagi and Jhoon Rhee?
    .

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    West Oz
    Posts
    125
    Quote Originally Posted by BigPandaBear
    I couldn't disagree more. No one deserves to be suckered by a fraud. Its up to the various MA communities to make sure that the name of their respective arts is not sullied by frauds and pickpockets. If you know there's a group out there spreading bad MA and you do nothing about it, you're part of the problem.
    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Caveat Emptor, as the saying goes.




    Quote Originally Posted by BigPandaBear
    I hope you don't honestly believe that the classic Jujutsus were "battlefield arts" used to disarm Samurais from horseback or other such nonsense. That's a common misconception I see coming out of traditional MAs these days. They believe their respective style was born from the blood of war or some other garbage, when in reality nothing could be further from the truth.
    You obviously know nothing of the koryu. I never said anything about disarming samurai from horseback or any such nonsense, but there ARE classical jujutsu ryuha still extant whose focus is battlefield combat. Takenouchi Ryu, Araki Ryu and Yagyu Shingan Ryu are a few examples I can think of. See:

    Quote Originally Posted by Finny
    A classic misnomer usually propounded by those who haven't been exposed to (ie. can't be bothered researching) genuine koryu arts.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigPandaBear
    I have problem with lineage discussions because it IS petty and ridiculous. There is little to be gained from such discussions because nothing is going to be done with the fradulant ryuha anyway. Look at what happened with the Xkans, they broke apart and now squabble like children over who's really doing "real Ninjutsu".
    The xkans are not koryu. As I said, do some research into the koryu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wood Dragon
    Almost all (except Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu?) of the Koryu were born in the Late Muromachi/Early Edo Periods, when everyone was nice to each other (on pain of death), and all actually developed in that Period
    Not really - Maniwa Nen Ryu, Araki Ryu, Takenouchi Ryu were all founded prior to the Edo period.

    There are numerous koryu founded throughout the Edo period, not just Early Edo period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wood Dragon
    None were developed to handle the battlefields of the Sengoku Jidai. Rather, they were developed from the skillset that existed at the end of the Warrring States Period, to train men who did not have any experience in war. Two different things, entirely.
    Not exactly. Another common misinterpretation of Japanese history is that once 1606 hit, "battlefield combat" was over, and peace reigned. There were several battles fought throughout the early Edo period (around the time you state ALL koryu developed). And skirmishes, and importantly, duels, were very frequent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wood Dragon
    The current practitioners are more guardians of a cultural treasure than fighters. They will tell you this themselves.
    Many are both.
    Last edited by Finny; 08-06-2006 at 05:26 PM.

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    232
    Quote Originally Posted by Finny
    Not really - Maniwa Nen Ryu, Araki Ryu, Takenouchi Ryu were all founded prior to the Edo period.

    They were founded in the late Muromachi, which I referenced.
    SevenStar: It's hilarious seeing people's reactions when they see a big, black dude with a sword walking toward them.

    Masterkiller: Especially when they're at the ATM.

    WTF? How did we go from the White Haired Devil strangling and beating guys to death in a teahouse, to Mr Miyagi and Jhoon Rhee?
    .

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •