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Thread: Bujutsu and Budo

  1. #61
    Would you guys reccomend Yoshinkan Aikido? It's meant to be pretty effective - don't Tokyo Police practise this art??

    S
    Black Mantis

  2. #62
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    I personally am not a big fan of aikido - if I was to learn some, Yoshinkan would be where I'd go - they're known as a harder, rougher branch of aikido.

    If you're still planning on going to London, you could check out some Tenjin Shinyo Ryu jujutsu - this is one of the styles Kano Jigoro based Kodokan Judo on - there are two authorised dojo outside Japan, one's in London. They practise Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu and traditional Kodokan Judo. Hardcore stuff. Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is a late Edo period unarmed jujutsu system, known for effective throwing, choking, striking, pinning and breaking techniques.

    If you're interested I'll PM you an email address.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmantis
    Would you guys reccomend Yoshinkan Aikido? It's meant to be pretty effective - don't Tokyo Police practise this art??

    S
    It depends on your mindset. Any Aikido program is difficult to learn, because standing locks are hard to pull off.

    The Tokyo police practice a lot of arts, not just Yoshinkan Aikido.

    If you're trying to become a fighter, you should avoid arts like Aikido and classical Jujutsu. Take an art where you'll be actually fighting someone in a full-contact environment. If you wish to be a cultural hobbyist, you can take any art that you want, but I don't think that's your goal.

  4. #64
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    Aikido is a good martial art to practice. It provides it's adherents with a set of tools that are very valuable to a person wishing to learn self-defense.

    1. You will learn to redirect an opponent's attack
    2. You will learn to restrain and control an opponent.
    3. you will learn to throw and pin an opponent.
    4. you will learn distance and timing.
    5. you will learn to control an opponents balance.
    6. you will learn to handle multiple attackers.
    7. You will learn to control the escalation of violence.
    8. You will condition your body.
    9. you will learn to use traditional japanese weapons.

    It is not always easy to find a good school that trains with the right mindest, but you will recognize such a school by it's hard sweaty training, it's full speed attacks and defenses, and it's formal atmosphere. I recommend any dojo affiliated with Birankai International.
    Bodhi Richards

  5. #65
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZP4vJ3CYX8

    My major concern (aside from the nonexistance of Bujinkan randori) would be the totally unrealistic method by which the attacker strikes during the drills. A lunging punch, with the off-arm refused? Humans do not attack like that. In many ways, it's worse than the Shotokan-derived "tori steps back, executes a low block, followed by a reverse-punch" drill.

    It's not just unrealistic, it's totally misleading, rendering the reaction drill worthless.

    I've seen tapes of the Bujinkan's Japanese Shihan. They don't teach this junk. And they arent getting it from classical jujutsu (which make up 6 of the 9 Bujinkan ryu), either.

    The tori acting like the uke's hand is a Tazer doesnt help, either. It's one thing not to resist during a drill, but going boneless the second uke touches you is a bit much.
    Last edited by Wood Dragon; 08-07-2006 at 11:46 PM.
    SevenStar: It's hilarious seeing people's reactions when they see a big, black dude with a sword walking toward them.

    Masterkiller: Especially when they're at the ATM.

    WTF? How did we go from the White Haired Devil strangling and beating guys to death in a teahouse, to Mr Miyagi and Jhoon Rhee?
    .

  6. #66

    For those that claim that Takamatsu Den arts do not contain any Ninjutsu...

    If this were the case, why would Takamatsu classify those three Ryu as Ninjutsu and why would he refer to himself as a ninja?
    He certainly was "the real deal" as a fighter and bullshido doesn't coincide with his personality.

  7. #67
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    1) The long lunging punch is step one in the learning process. It gives lots of energy and offers a longer reaction time. Being able to do technique in response to this type of attack is not the end of the journey. A good shihan, of course, would not stop their training at this point, but move to the next level. (ex. I can counter a right lunging attack, can I now grow to counter attacks off of a right hand lead? It would be much less telegraphed and feed less enregy, but if I am good this is what my training must evolve into.) You know, big circles to little circles, prearranged movements to improv, or other advances. This could explian away what is seen as weak training as merely basic training. Perhaps going deeper in the art would reveal something grower more complex?

    2) Hatsumi was a high level student of Yumio Nawa before training with Takamatsu. Many Japanese believe that Yumio Nawa was a master of ninjutsu. Therefore, of all three (4?) possible ninja grandmasters (some with greater reputation than others) of the generation proceeding Hatsumi, he earned teaching credentials from two. I think based on this point, if Hatsumi wants to call himslef a ninja, then it would be hard to find somebody more qualified to assess the validity of that statement.

    3) Hatsumi and Takamatsu were both invited to the Kodokan to give instruction. How common is this for non-judoka? I would guess this would mean that they were both able to apply their art in randori. Takamatsu and Hatsumi both engaged in combative testing of their skills when they were younger.

    4) Hatsumi has been involved in the past wiith the training of some of the best special operations units in the world. I'm not talking about having a few commandoes as students. I'm talking about being invited to the units home base to provide lengthy instruction. This would lead me to believe that whatever Hatsumi knows, some pretty impressive people found him worthy to listen to regarding the topic of combat.
    Last edited by Stranger; 08-20-2006 at 03:11 PM.
    Monkey vs. Robot

  8. #68
    Yumio Nawa...thats an interesting lead. Got any recommended reading reguarding him and Ninpo?
    I'll also throw Seiko Fujita in this thread. It is said that he was the last Koga Ninja and took his Ninjutsu to the grave.
    Last edited by The Xia; 08-20-2006 at 08:44 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
    2) Hatsumi was a high level student of Yumio Nawa before training with Takamatsu. Many Japanese believe that Yumio Nawa was a master of ninjutsu. Therefore, of all three (4?) possible ninja grandmasters (some with greater reputation than others) of the generation proceeding Hatsumi, he earned teaching credentials from two. I think based on this point, if Hatsumi wants to call himslef a ninja, then it would be hard to find somebody more qualified to assess the validity of that statement.
    So you're saying if Mr. Hatsumi wants to call himself a ninja, no-one other than himself is more qualified to assess the validity of his own statement? ookay.

    He did not earn teaching credentials from two - all of his teaching credentials are from Takamatsu.

    And Yumio Nawa was not a ninja - himself and every one of his students consistently stated that he was a ninjutsu historian. He was the soke of Masaki Ryu. Can you name any of these "many Japanese" who believe he was a master of ninjutsu? Besides which - he never gave Mr. Hatsumi any teaching credentials.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stranger
    3) Hatsumi and Takamatsu were both invited to the Kodokan to give instruction. How common is this for non-judoka?
    It's not that uncommon - I can think of a koryu jujutsu shihan who was invited to the Kodokan to teach some resucitation methods to the high level judo guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stranger
    4) Hatsumi has been involved in the past wiith the training of some of the best special operations units in the world. I'm not talking about having a few commandoes as students. I'm talking about being invited to the units home base to provide lengthy instruction. This would lead me to believe that whatever Hatsumi knows, some pretty impressive people found him worthy to listen to regarding the topic of combat.
    Being an expert on combat doesnt make one a ninja.

    Regardless of anyone's combat ability or skill or knowlege, there are separate issues involved here.

    The Bujinkan may be the greatest martial arts style in the world - but it aint ninjutsu.

    Mr. Hatsumi can call it ninjutsu as much as he wants, his students can call it ninjutsu - the fact is, there is no historical link/lineage to indicate that Mr. Hatsumi is passing on any ninjutsu tradition.

    The Japanese were obsessive record keepers - they have distinct ways of passing down traditions - even traditions involving ninjutsu (see TSKSR/Tatsumi Ryu). Mr. Hatsumi doesn't have any evidence that would suggest there were practitioners of his "ninpo" ryuha before Takamatsu. As anyone who knows anything of history will understand, you need evidence to support any historical claim.

    Mr. Hatsumi's evidence consists of his teacher - Takamatsu. Prior to Takamatsu, the lineage disappears into non-existant people (Toda) and other fictional characters.

    There's a reason why Mr. Hatsumi is something of a joke among the koryu folk in Japan - and it aint cos he's a comedian.

    You have to separate the combat effectiveness and knowlege Mr. Hatsumi may well posess from the historical issues. As I said - he may be the toughest fighter in the world, he might be the nicest guy in the world - but if he's going to claim to teach an "ancient lineage (or three)" of ninjutsu - he should provide some sort of evidence that goes beyond himself and Takamatsu - every other koryu can provide evidence of a lineage going back beyond the Meiji period - Mr. Hatsumi can't provide evidence beyond his own teacher.
    Last edited by Finny; 08-20-2006 at 06:47 PM.

  10. #70
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    And round and round we go.....

    In 2000 Hatsumi was awarded Japan's highest honour - the cultural award by the Emperor of Japan.

    Some joke

    No one had a go at Takamatsu credentials

  11. #71
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    Round and round indeed.

    a) Since when did the emperor become "koryu folk"?

    b) What does some cultural award have to do with the history of Hatsumi's ninjutsu? I remember reading about Frank Dux recieving a civil service award somewhere - does that make "Dux Ryu" legit ninjutsu?

    c) Yes - people did question Takamatsu's credentials - when it came to ninjutsu.

    Is it not telling that Donn Draeger - undoubtedly the west's pioneering MA researcher and someone who was intimately familiar with the koryu bugei at a time when most westerners thought the samurai practised karate and judo - chose NOT to study with Mr. Hatsumi, but rather with Otake Risuke Shihan of the TSKSR? And told others that Mr. Hatsumi's ninjutsu was not an historical lineage, but a modern recreation?

    There is a reason there are not numerous threads questioning the historical veracity of Takenouchi Ryu or Shinkage Ryu, but there are dozens of such threads involving folks trying to figure out if the Takamatsuden 'ninpo' arts are koryu.

    For the same reason there are no threads debating whether Chen Shi Taijiquan is legit CMA, but there are multiple page threads debating same re. Shaolin-do.

    The point is - these issues could be clarified with ANY sort of evidence to support the idea that these 'ninpo' ryuha existed prior to Takamatsu. Mr. Hatsumi could have easily joined the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai as he wanted to - by simply providing said evidence.

    That he hasn't produced this evidence means we must either:

    - Take his word for it.

    - Remain skeptics until some sort of evidence is produced.

    I choose the latter - YMMV.
    Last edited by Finny; 08-20-2006 at 11:28 PM. Reason: typo

  12. #72
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    I dont think Frank Dux and Hatsumi are in the same basket -LOL

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacktiger View Post
    I dont think Frank Dux and Hatsumi are in the same basket -LOL
    They may both be ninjas, but Dux won the Kumite. I put my money on Dux.

    Ninja stars are sweet.

  14. #74
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    So you're saying if Mr. Hatsumi wants to call himself a ninja, no-one other than himself is more qualified to assess the validity of his own statement? ookay.

    He did not earn teaching credentials from two - all of his teaching credentials are from Takamatsu.

    And Yumio Nawa was not a ninja - himself and every one of his students consistently stated that he was a ninjutsu historian. He was the soke of Masaki Ryu. Can you name any of these "many Japanese" who believe he was a master of ninjutsu? Besides which - he never gave Mr. Hatsumi any teaching credentials.
    I guess I wasn't as clear as would have liked. What I meant (overall) was Hatsumi is skilled and his teachers were identified in their day as ninja. Who cares what he calls himself. What is a ninja today? If you teach martial arts and combine stealth, what is wrong with taking on the mantle? I mean some people act like monks, others act like samurai, why not a ninja? Everybody knows that even if both of Hatsumi's teachers were full blown combat blooded ninjas, he isn't teaching that stuff to Joe-student, so what does it matter? If I can learn from somebody than they have my attention. I don't know or care if Hatsumi teaches historically authentic ninjutsu.

    Are you saying Hatsumi was not given teaching credential from Nawa or that Nawa was not a ninja?

    Toshishiro Obata has been casting Nawa as a ninja in the West for a long time. If he is wrong or lying than what can I say? He says that Nawa didn't teach his material as ninjutsu but that the man was the most legit ninja of them all. Once again, what do I know. Obata seems to believe that NHK agrees with this.

    You will never see me argue that the Bujinkan history is 100% or that all Bujinkan schools are amazing. I do find it funny that people go after the Bujinkan as the epitomy of frauds when BS is liberally sprinkled throughout MA, and the Bujinkan is not the worst culprit.

    I had a teacher that once called himslef a "bushi". In reality he was a man that knew jujutsu. I ignored his chosen title and learned alot.

    I believe the lectures that Takamatsu gave at the Kodokan were on kazushi, a little more dynamic than kappo techniques.

    Regarding Hatsumi's lack of documentation....Hatsumi and Takamatsu at one point were not challenged on their word for better or worse. When asked documents were shown. These documents were housed in a museum. The museum caught fire and the documents were destroyed. Hatsumi and Takamatsu recreated the documents and scrolls from memory. Everybody comes out of the woodwork that has as an axe to grind and says,"No documents= not a real art." The fire is well recorded. The location of the documents was well recorded. The status of the oringinal is admitted. If there is an ounce of truth to what Hatsumi says, it can never be proven. There are a lot of arts that have no documented history or only partially documented history, most are left alone, why not the Bujinkan?

    Consider too, Hatsumi might believe every word he says even if it were to be proven to be 100% false. Perhaps the deception goes back a generation earlier? How can we prove it did not?

    If you think the fishy story invalidates all that could be learned from a talented guy like Hatsumi, than so be it.

    Peace
    Last edited by Stranger; 08-21-2006 at 10:21 AM.
    Monkey vs. Robot

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stranger View Post

    If you think the fishy story invalidates all that could be learned from a talented guy like Hatsumi, than so be it.

    Peace
    Exactly !!!!!!!!!

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