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Thread: Piercing Palms in Yin Fu Only?

  1. #1
    Scarletmantis Guest

    Piercing Palms in Yin Fu Only?

    Liang Zhen Pu style Ba Gua features the piercing palm in seven of it's Lao Ba Zhang. We do it with the "dragon palm" common to Cheng's style. When I look through my lineage charts, I see no connection with Yin's style, whatsoever. Is it a common opinion that Yin Fu originated the piercing palm? If so, how did it work it's way into Liang Zhen Pu's style? Is it possible that Dong Hai Chuan taught the piercing palm to Liang and Yin both? Just curious.

    "The essence of life is struggle and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war."

  2. #2
    razakdigital Guest

    Bottom line - Yin Fu is the first student

    The bottom line is the Yin Fu was Dong's first student. He learn all of what Dong taught. Of course of Yin Fu have many students that branched out and they also taught students. We can talk about this day but we won't get anywhere...all styles of pa kua have piercing is up to the student to understand how to apply the pa kua principles of change...there is not one style of pa kua that doesn't have kicking, grappling, kua is a universal fighting is only limited by the imagination and creativity of the is the individual that sets limits not the style...for example Cheng Ting Hua and Fu Chen Song have piercing palm in their styles...

    It doesn't matter what lineage you come from you just better have an understanding of the art of change...

  3. #3
    Scarletmantis Guest
    Razak, this question arose in response to a post you had written about Park Bok Nam.

    " far as Yin Fu the only thing I've seen of Yin Fu style in (Park's) form is piercing palm..."

    It sounded to me like you were saying that if Yin Fu was present in Park's form, it was in the palm technique, because Park's style wouldn't have a piercing palm unless it contained Yin style. Perhaps the implication was there, but that's not what you meant.

    At any rate, I know very little about Yin Fu's style, or Park Bok Nam's form, but I must heartily disagree with your statement that " It dosen't matter what lineage your from, you just better have an understanding of the art of change...". By that rational I could throw together some TKD and circle walking, then call it Ba Gua because I understand "the art of change". What if you were the student in this senario? What would you do after years of practicing like that? Or worse yet, what if you NEVER found out, and passed the bogus Ba Gua on to someone else?

    Lineage is important because it shows us where we're going, where we're from, and provides an acid test to keep out the kind of nonsense inherent in the "Mc Dojo" mentality.

    When I asked about the Yin Fu style's use of the Piercing Palm technique, I was attempting to learn something about what it is my Yin brothers and sisters are doing. The question was about STYLE! Not lineage, not principles. It is presisely because I understand the PRINCIPLES of our system that I asked the question in the first place. It seemed odd to me that someone might not use a palm technique so fundamental to my style. I wanted to know why.

    "The essence of life is struggle and it's goal is domination. There are higher goals and deeper meanings, but they exist only within the minds of men. The reality of life is war."

  4. #4
    maoshan Guest


    All of the Palms were taught to dong's students,
    they just chose thier own specialty. Yin's Hall mark,was his piercing Palm, The Dragon Palm Was
    Cheng Ting Hwa's. What about Ma's Crab Palm.

    Keep this in mind, there are Other methods of BaGua that most westerners have not been exposed
    to. We've been exposed,(this far) to two styles
    of Ba-Gua, YIN and Cheng and thier varients.

    Dong Hai Chuan Taught 10 students. each had thier own focus. Dong Had a student he named
    Cunning Legs Who's Ba-Gua Contained More Kicking than the rest. The animal styles, Like Snake Ba-Gua, Which is Beyond words to describe. The Point
    is , all Dong's students Knew the primary Palms,
    thier systems reflects thier particular emphasis.

    I Hope this answers your Question.



    Practice doesn't make perfect.
    Perfect practice makes perfect. :)

  5. #5
    wujidude Guest
    One of the 8 basic palm changes in the Sun Xikun style is called "Three Piercing Palms," which are delivered in a linear move between two directional changes. Sun studied with Cheng Tinghua's oldest son, Cheng You-long, after first learning xingyiquan. However, other Cheng lineages don't necessarily have this palm change, including lineages from Cheng You-long.

    The piercing palms in Sun's palm change are delivered with the tiger's mouth open (i.e., the thumb stretched out), which differs from piercing palm applications I've seen in a couple of different Yin Fu styles (where the thumb of the piercing hand touches the lao gong, a.k.a. ox-tongue palm). The Sun piercing palm really resembles an open-palmed heng quan (from xingyi), with either the tiger's mouth or the fingers used as the striking surface (it can also be closed into a fist).

    I'm not sure that Dong Hai-chuan really organized his teaching that well. It's my impression that it was really the first generation of his students (Yin Fu, Cheng Tinghua, etc.) that began organizing Dong's scattered teachings into 8 palm changes and the various linear forms, and naturally incorporated techniques from each student's individual martial arts background before he trained with Dong. Thus I'd agree with Maoshan's point (if I understand him correctly)that each of Dong's 10 (or whatever number it is) senior students developed their own emphasis.

    As far as Park Bok Nam, I think that his teacher's teacher's Yin Fu training is apparent in more than just the piercing palm. It's certainly apparent in his relatively closed guard stance, in the emphasis on striking and the strategy of "defanging the snake," and other key points of Park's practice (according to the books/tapes he did with Dan Miller and what his students have told me). Obviously Park also teaches takedowns and throws too.

    I think lineages exploded after the first and second generations of Dong's students. I guess I look more for principles then lineage in determining if what I am seeing is bagua. But I for **** sure don't know what all the "key principles" of bagua are.

  6. #6
    Rockwood Guest

    Sun Xi Kun 3 Sliding Palms

    Hi Wuji!

    I have learned some of Sun Xi Kun's system. There is a palm change my teacher called: "Three Sliding Palms" which must be similar to the one you know.

    You turn on the inside of the circle. step forward along the circle and stab with the palm up. Step forward again on the circle and stab with palm up. Step forward again along the circle, begin to stab, but at the last second it changes to a chop with the side of the hand.

    The finishing move for all our palm changes is different than any other style Ive seen. After the final hit, you turn and do an extreme coil to the outside of the circle so that you are crouched with all the weight on one leg.

    You then uncoil to go back to standing and pierce forward. Step and scoop with the piercing hand and do a sweeping kick as your palms go back to the millstone posture.

    Im sure this is complicated when reading it, but I was wondering if it sounds anything like your system's palm changes. Could you give me some description of them?


  7. #7
    wujidude Guest
    You got it, Rockwood. In fact it is done on the circle, but initially is taught on a straight line. T.Y. Pang called it "Three Piercing Palms," and that's how Li Jingru in an interview at Jarek Szymanski's site refers to it as well.

    I'm not about to attempt a verbal description of Sun Xikun's 8 palm changes. A couple of interesting aspects, though: unlike the single palm changes of some other styles I've seen, after the initial kou bu, Sun's single palm change calls for stepping back with the inside leg before turning. Also, the double palm change is more complicated than the Nine Palaces' style or others that I've seen.

    I'm a relative beginner in this style. I haven't seen the 23 straight-line drills that Victor Chao (?) apparently teaches. We do individual applications practice from each of the palm changes to enliven class a little.

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