block uppercut sow choy

[green_willow]

Years ago, people trained as some do in present times. They got together with Martial Artists of various systems and exchanged techniques. In other situations, they fought other Martial Artists of different styles. This eventually led to the formulation of specific tactics to deal with the prevalent fighting techniques. Many Southern styles-prefer to stick to the bridge, therefore to combat these people, a different approach was neccesary. Choy Li fut, pesessing the same long arm striking methods, developed the anti-bridge appraoch-if you attempt to stick to a CLF stylist, he will shift and withdraw the bridge and replace it with a strike from another angle. (followed by another, and another...) This is why many Hung Kuen practitioners also studied CLF, and vice-versa. This may also explain styles like Jow-Ga-Hung Tao/Choy Mei-Head of Hung, Tail of Choy. In the line of Hung Kuen I practice, the past few generations had also studied both, as did I. This is why I personally relate to both Hung Kuen and Choy Li Fut.

But some bridging styles like tai chi or tang lang chuen puts on the traps when the opponent's arms withdraws, or follow the path of the withdrawal for a strike. How would CLF deal with this?

[green_willow]

Green Willow, another reason why I study western boxing to compliment my Choy Lay Fut striking.

Since we are the "non-sticking" oddball of the Southern Fist family, learn the striking pattern of boxing doesn't have any negative impacts with the style. All I see it is as adding some extra punches to our arsenal, like shovel uppercuts, overhands, hooks, and power crosses mostly.

The footwork and theory of rooting vs. pivoting for me is NOT a "static" one. . . . . meaning you don't have to "only use one" in a real-world fighting situation. Rooting or Pivoting (boxing) IMO are to be used depending on the technique, situation, distance, etc.

If they are far away and open up, I'm going to give them a hard right cross or overhand, meaning I'll pivot for the extended reach and power. If I were do use a Kup Choy, I'd root and sink as I strike. All three punches (cross, overhand, kup choy) are long-range attacks, and I'll have to pick depending on the angle of his opening, my body positioning relative to his, etc.

Hope that makes sense.

I think it's good to cross train wth boxing. because you can't bridge or stick by virtue of the rules, you tend to develop even better timing for your strikes. At the same time I don't think that learning a sticking art interferes with what you do in CLF or boxing.

If you can stick and open up the angles this will give you even more opportunities for your strikes.

As for pivoting, you can use the twisted horse stance to get more reach - not sure if that's the same position you're talking about.

[Infrazael]

By twisting horse are you referring to the broken horse/kneeling horse?

You basically kneel with your back leg.

It's the exact same position as in Boxing, where you throw crosses. A cross to the head uses a high kneeling horse, while a cross to the body uses a low kneeling horse.

[green_willow]

By twisting horse are you referring to the broken horse/kneeling horse?

You basically kneel with your back leg.

It's the exact same position as in Boxing, where you throw crosses. A cross to the head uses a high kneeling horse, while a cross to the body uses a low kneeling horse.

Yes that's probably it - low kneeling horse. see stance No.4 (but not done to such an extent but basically this sort of position).

http://www.shaolinwolf.com/morechitr...r/stances1.htm

[TenTigers]

willow-the hand 'disolves'. This is a Chinese Martial Arts term, meaning it changes direction, going with the energy given and using slightly more, eludes the bridge or sticking hand.I strike, you stick, I drop my hand down, and with a circular motion, "run" and hit with sow choy. CLF has the disolving hand down to a science. Southern Mantis also makes use of this as well.

[Infrazael]

In CLF we make use of momentary contact. Specifically stuff like Sau Choys, Kup Choys, Poon Kius, Chin Jees, etc.

Every strike is a block; every block is a potential strike.

To be honest I've never fought someone that sticks before, so I wouldn't know from firsthand experience how to deal with it.

But I would suppose to take the normal Leopard mentality to "grind off" the other person's arm. . . . . you strike, they bridge, you stay in contact but move against what he's planning to do. . . . hard to describe in words. You essentially break the bridge (even an inch counts as breaking IMO for CLF), then "ride" that motion until impact.

One good example is the twisting Chop Choy (pantherfist), you can evade straight punches, intercept punches yet still hit, or be intercepted but still able to "twist" into the strike.

Other modes can be even more aggressive. They can bridge or stick to you, but instead of playing along you can use push-pull attacks to knock their limbs out of the way, then proceed to strike on your own. Since CLF doesn't WANT TO BRIDGE, there's not point trying to "regain control" or "control their bridge."

We have no desire to "keep the bridge" whereas I believe if two Hung Kuen people fought, they would probably try to gain control of each other's bridge, thus controlling the situation of the fight.

With CLF, we basically say "**** the bridge," break it, then start striking from all sorts of odd angles. While they're trying to reassert control, we don't give a crap; we just strike away.

[Eddie]

No need to cross train in boxing really. CLF already has all that. Infrazel, do you guys do Gei Boon Yat and Gei Boon Yi forms? Those are very very basic forms (not traditional really) but GB2 starts like Che Keun where you step out gwa choy, then you basically cross jab and follow up with the hand that just gwa choyed. Jusst as it is, this app really works exactly the same as the boxers jab combo.

For one of my fights I had to fight a guy who had a pro boxing record of about 96(wins) – 1(lost), before he started his Thaiboxing carreer. It just seemed logical then for me to get some boxing skill in, but now that I think about it, I had all the tools in the first place. Sure I got to understand how a boxer think, but don’t drop to his game, your fight is on another level, if I worked my CLF combos in the right way, it could have been enough. (BTW – I lost that fight – the guy was really good – never will I ever try fight the other guy’s fight. I will stick to my own fight plan).

In my school we use allot of Gwa-, sow-,cup-, pao choys in san shou (more so recently) with great succsess. I have found that if you stick to traditional fighting concepts, it works just as well, even though you have gloves on. If a fighter is skilled and he works on his speed, it becomes pretty difficult to counter those strikes. Long armed strikes also doesn’t have to look sloppy and like you are brawling, the CLF structure is just so much more practical.

[green_willow]

In CLF we make use of momentary contact. Specifically stuff like Sau Choys, Kup Choys, Poon Kius, Chin Jees, etc.

Every strike is a block; every block is a potential strike.

To be honest I've never fought someone that sticks before, so I wouldn't know from firsthand experience how to deal with it.

But I would suppose to take the normal Leopard mentality to "grind off" the other person's arm. . . . . you strike, they bridge, you stay in contact but move against what he's planning to do. . . . hard to describe in words. You essentially break the bridge (even an inch counts as breaking IMO for CLF), then "ride" that motion until impact.

One good example is the twisting Chop Choy (pantherfist), you can evade straight punches, intercept punches yet still hit, or be intercepted but still able to "twist" into the strike.

Other modes can be even more aggressive. They can bridge or stick to you, but instead of playing along you can use push-pull attacks to knock their limbs out of the way, then proceed to strike on your own. Since CLF doesn't WANT TO BRIDGE, there's not point trying to "regain control" or "control their bridge."

We have no desire to "keep the bridge" whereas I believe if two Hung Kuen people fought, they would probably try to gain control of each other's bridge, thus controlling the situation of the fight.

With CLF, we basically say "**** the bridge," break it, then start striking from all sorts of odd angles. While they're trying to reassert control, we don't give a crap; we just strike away.

This is rather interesting what you say. With the leapord - if I understand correctly you are interception and striking with the same action. As with the push / pull method to shake of the bridge to strike at all different angles. These are methods you might find bridging styles also do such as tai chi. They don't just bridge and stay with it - they also break the bridge and go for stikes at least that's what we do when we spar.

If I were to guess it seems the leapord technique is very advance. Shaking off the bridge and using the shake to go for strikes is also quite advance. What level of training do you start using these?

[green_willow]

willow-the hand 'disolves'. This is a Chinese Martial Arts term, meaning it changes direction, going with the energy given and using slightly more, eludes the bridge or sticking hand.I strike, you stick, I drop my hand down, and with a circular motion, "run" and hit with sow choy. CLF has the disolving hand down to a science. Southern Mantis also makes use of this as well.

Yes definately! In the end it comes down to relative skill between the 2 players. One of the ways a bridger might try to do is work up the arm to the shoulders or the neck join to gain control from there.

[TenTigers]

methinks our Green Willow is not as green as when he first started this . What started out as immature obnoxious tit for tat, has developed into the Socratic method to pose pointed questions and draw out some really excellent responses from the members of the board.
This is what I enjoy most-guys from the same styles, different schools, and also guys from different styles, all contributing, and bouncing ideas off each other. This is what has led to what we call"The Gathering" on the recently deceased SouthernFist Forum. We eventually met, traded hands, exchanged ideads, and did this on a regular basis. The Gathering, eventually turned into a small, tight group of friends, and we get together all the time, and train together. We have one guy from Lung Ying, one from Wing Chun, one from Buck Sing CLF, One from Hung Kuen, one from Jook Lum Southern Mantis, and others are invited and usually get assimilated into the collective-resistance is futile. We recently had a Goju Ryu guy join in, and a certain Fut-Sao Wing Chun Sifu is being "lured" into our group as well. We also call ourselves "the Black Sheep Squadron," because
many of us are....well kinda disliked by some of the muckety-mucks.
fek'em

[Infrazael]

This is rather interesting what you say. With the leapord - if I understand correctly you are interception and striking with the same action. As with the push / pull method to shake of the bridge to strike at all different angles. These are methods you might find bridging styles also do such as tai chi. They don't just bridge and stay with it - they also break the bridge and go for stikes at least that's what we do when we spar.

If I were to guess it seems the leapord technique is very advance. Shaking off the bridge and using the shake to go for strikes is also quite advance. What level of training do you start using these?

To actually "learn" the panther/leopard techniques is not all that difficult. In our branch of CLF (I think all as well) we learn almost all of the panther fist techniques from the get go (our first form consists of mostly pantherfists and gwa choys).

But to actually "know" how to apply them takes a different level. . . . one that I'm not too good at currently. But it's there, first you have to know how to apply it at the theoretical level, which by itself takes quite a bit of time to understand.

Then you have to use it at a realistic level, because knowing theory doesn't help if you can't apply it for real.

But they are pretty advanced, more or less than the other animals? I don't know. CLF is mostly leopard anyways, with some Tiger and Crane thrown in.

Other people, myself included, see CLF as half Elephant as well, characterized by Gwa, Sau, Kup, Biu, Jong, etc. . . . most noticeably, the versions of those attack which are intended to "crush" the opponent, break guards, strike the opponent's attacks, etc.

[TenTigers]

I have heard that Wong Yun Lum Hop-Ga/Lama Master was an influence on CLF, which would mean that the gwa,sow, cup,biu,jong came from the White Ape rather than the elephant. Wong Yun Lum also influenced Hung-Ga in the same way.

[Infrazael]

I have heard that Wong Yun Lum Hop-Ga/Lama Master was an influence on CLF, which would mean that the gwa,sow, cup,biu,jong came from the White Ape rather than the elephant. Wong Yun Lum also influenced Hung-Ga in the same way.

Could be. But if I know correct the 10 Animal CLF forms have Elephant, not Ape.

Or you could say CLF is more like Lama Pai than anything else, thus influenced by Lama perhaps?

[green_willow]

To actually "learn" the panther/leopard techniques is not all that difficult. In our branch of CLF (I think all as well) we learn almost all of the panther fist techniques from the get go (our first form consists of mostly pantherfists and gwa choys).

But to actually "know" how to apply them takes a different level. . . . one that I'm not too good at currently. But it's there, first you have to know how to apply it at the theoretical level, which by itself takes quite a bit of time to understand.

Then you have to use it at a realistic level, because knowing theory doesn't help if you can't apply it for real.

You'll have a huge advantage to be able to apply it at a practical level. Do you have specific exercise / drills to develop this type of skill besides free sparring? Yes I agree it's a big jump from understanding it in theory to applying it in sparring.

I have heard that Wong Yun Lum Hop-Ga/Lama Master was an influence on CLF, which would mean that the gwa,sow, cup,biu,jong came from the White Ape rather than the elephant. Wong Yun Lum also influenced Hung-Ga in the same way.

From what I've read, lama/hopgar is similar to CLF. You also mentioned white ape - some peopel associate this with tong bei. They also have large arm movements but it's whip like but at the same time there is weight enough to cut through guards / stick what have you. Is this the type of movement you generate from CLF?

[hskwarrior]

ten tigers,

the long swinging arm movements represent the trunk of the elephant.

green willow, keep up like this and you might learn something about choy lee fut.
there is much more to the system than you know of because each sifu has his own take on how to use it based off of the own experience.

so when you mention sow choys its not only meant for the neck and head area but is definetely designed to crash violently through just about anyones guard. the sow choys have many many purposes.

the panther is not that hard to apply all it takes is some time to develop with so many other choy lee fut things on your plate. the hands are fast, successive, and can come from all angles. when you strike with the panther fist it can slice your flesh open, penetrate into areas we don't normally aim, but if you do it wrong you can suffer in the end.