who's the best wing chun guy

[Green Cloud]

That's harsh, but then again his class was filled with students. Maybe I should do that to my student's when they're late with tuition.

But seriously what's the deal with that guy and why were those guys taking that **** from him.

Mat do you have any backround info on this guy??? Is that Shooto

[Phil Redmond]

Keith mazza seems to be the senior guy right now and yea I met him and he's a big mo fo.

Actually Gus, there are a few more senior than Keith Mazza. I am one of them. Keith Mazza's school is the headquarters for North America though. Keith was a student of Gary Young. I was present in NJ at William Cheungs 65th birthday party in Oct. 2005 when Keith Mazza was accepted as an 'Indoor" student by Cheung Sifu. He is now officially a student of William Cheung and not Gary Young.
And with regards to Keith being on any website link for MMA he probably wouldn't be. He had some problems with the organization he fought for and he left them. So I can see them not putting his name on any list.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Out of the remaining students in the association, meaning the ones still with GM Cheung, the best is supposed to be Sifu Keith Mazza (he's something like 6'3" and 240lbs and has fought successfully in NHB events), from New Jersey.

My Sifu was with GM Cheung up until 94'. He learned TWC from Cheung himself in Aussie Land back in 86' and learned the whole Cirriculum in 8 months, returning back home here in 87'. There is also Sifu Rick Spain from Australia, who won the Hong Kong fighting championship back in 82' I believe, middleweight division (Spain is also no longer associated with Cheung). Another TWC practitioner under Cheung, his name is Joe (can't spell his last name), won the heavyweight division for that same year also. I've only heard good things about Spain, but have never seen him in action.

James

Hi James, Cheung Sifu wasn't teaching in 1986. He stopped teaching years earlier and had a student teach at the school like he had Dana Wong do. He was touring doing seminars and wasn't in Australia the whole time during 1986. He would do private lessons when he was in Australia though so I can see your Sifu getting some lessons directly from Cheung Sifu. Sifu used to do at least 3 world tours during those years and he's stay in NYC a while training me, Victor Parlati, and Sonny Whitmore so we could start teaching there.
Phil

[Green Cloud]

Phil I know your a senior, but can you list the senior top guys in order. Are you the Dai si hing you seem to be the most knowledgeable.

greencloud.net

[sihing]

Hi James, Cheung Sifu wasn't teaching in 1986. He stopped teaching years earlier and had a student teach at the school like he had Dana Wong do. He was touring doing seminars and wasn't in Australia the whole time during 1986. He would do private lessons when he was in Australia though so I can see your Sifu getting some lessons directly from Cheung Sifu. Sifu used to do at least 3 world tours during those years and he's stay in NYC a while training me, Victor Parlati, and Sonny Whitmore so we could start teaching there.
Phil

Hi Phil,

From what I understand he was teaching in 86'. Sifu said that Cheung would personally take aside the international students and bring them through somethings on a very regular basis. He also invited all the international students over to his house for a dinner reception. His brother David was teaching alot also.

Simu used to come go the school there in Australia and watch the class all the time, many times Cheung would striking up conversations with her...She and Sifu also accompanied Cheung on a summer camp or two, they really enjoyed that part..

James

[Phil Redmond]

Phil I know your a senior, but can you list the senior top guys in order. Are you the Dai si hing you seem to be the most knowledgeable.

greencloud.net

[If I miss anyone's name it wasn't intentional]

Blaine Collins of Nevada is the most senior in North America. He met William Cheung in Australia when he was in the Navy. That's how Sifu (Cheung), got to teach the U.S. Marines and Sailors with the 7th Fleet. Blaine got Sifu to come to the States to do a seminars. I think the first seminar was in Las Vegas in 1983. Eric Oram (LA), John Clayton, (MD), Bill O'Connell, (LV) are the only ones I remember that were ate that seminar and became students. So they are among my seniors. The next seminar was the two week July 1983 UCLA seminars. (I was already a WC Sifu but decided to start over again in TWC at that time.)
Jerrry Bolding (KS), (Bolding may have been at the first one) Charles Boness (WI), is one that I remember from that one. The next one that year was in Boston. That's where Dana Wong, Victor Parlati, etc. met Sifu Cheung. The very first seminar held in NYC was at my school in Soho. somewhere in between Boston and NYC Cheung Sifu stayed at Gary Young's house in White Plains. Keith Mazza was Young's student and obviously got the see Sifu during that period but was still learning from Young. Sifu eventually took an interest in Keith and started teaching him personally. In Oct. 2005 during Sifu Cheung's 65th birthday party Sifu announced that Keith Mazza was now his "indoor" student, which took Keith by surprise.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Phil,

From what I understand he was teaching in 86'. Sifu said that Cheung would personally take aside the international students and bring them through somethings on a very regular basis. He also invited all the international students over to his house for a dinner reception. His brother David was teaching alot also.

Simu used to come go the school there in Australia and watch the class all the time, many times Cheung would striking up conversations with her...She and Sifu also accompanied Cheung on a summer camp or two, they really enjoyed that part..

James

He probably did teach some, but he wasn't there the whole year in '86. He toured many countries to do seminars that year on at least three different occaisions. He would come to NYC a few weeks before the seminar and a few weeks after the seminar to get us prepared to start schools in NYC. Sifu does only two world tours now but back then he used to come to the States 3 to 4 times yearly. How do i know? I was the President of the East coast region of the WWCFK Association. Sonny Whitmore was Vice Prez, and Victor Parlati was treasurer. Blaine Collins was Dai Sihing and Prez of North America. I still have or monthy newletters and other records in case I need to refresh myself on dates and events.
Phil

[sihing]

He probably did teach some, but he wasn't there the whole year in '86. He toured many countries to do seminars that year on at least three different occaisions. He would come to NYC a few weeks before the seminar and a few weeks after the seminar to get us prepared to start schools in NYC. Sifu does only two world tours now but back then he used to come to the States 3 to 4 times yearly. How do i know? I was the President of the East coast region of the WWCFK Association. Sonny Whitmore was Vice Prez, and Victor Parlati was treasurer. Blaine Collins was Dai Sihing and Prez of North America. I still have or monthy newletters and other records in case I need to refresh myself on dates and events.
Phil

That's true Phil. As Sifu was there when the whole Cheung/Boztepe thing happened and was surprised he said to see William back so soon from Germany when it all happened. That's when he found out about the attack and such. So there was of course times when William was gone and other's were there to teach the students..

James

[Phil Redmond]

That's true Phil. As Sifu was there when the whole Cheung/Boztepe thing happened and was surprised he said to see William back so soon from Germany when it all happened. That's when he found out about the attack and such. So there was of course times when William was gone and other's were there to teach the students..

James

I agree and by no means was I trying to demean your Sifu. In fact, he and I exchanged emails a while back.
Phil

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Just wondering who is the best wing chun guy in William Chungs camp, and who is most senior???" (Green Cloud)


***NOT NECESSARILY one and the same thing, Green Cloud. But I think you probably already know that. Senority is tricky business - and not always reflective of what's really what.

For example...Phil Redmond is technically my "senior" because he joined in June, 1983...and I joined two months later in August, 1983. But I got my Gold Sash before Phil did (I received it in October, 1990...so who was I compared to Phil at that moment - his senior?)

See my point?

...Took my first test toward the Master Level in 1993 - one of the first people in the asociation at that time to do that ...learned quite a bit beyond that Provisional Master Level 2 and the final level but never took another test until ten years later (2003) ...and haven't taken another test since even though I know most of the material to full Master Level by now.

...Meanwhile Phil has gotten his full Master Level about a year or so ago.

So what does it all mean? Confused yet? Well then try this on for size:

During the mid 1990's Keith Mazza spent some time time learning the wooden dummy with Sonny Whitmore so as to prepare for his Gold Sash test...and then he got to full Master Level ahead of both Phil and me.

See where I'm going?

(Btw...Keith Mazza stands 5' 11" and weighs 235...and he did fight in one or two low level MMA events back in the late 1990's - but I don't remember which ones).

So trying to figure who is most senior in William Cheung's camp can be very tricky indeed - especially if you start counting people who joined William before you did (and they achieved some fairly high rank) but eventually left the association.

But trying to figure out who's the best might be a little easier - though still somewhat subjective. And by best I mean best fighter.

So here's a partial list alphabetically of who I think the best fighters are who ever trained with William Cheung - regardless of whether or not they are still with him. (I say partial because I've never met any of the European guys and very few of the Australians) - but I will mention some of those I've never met based upon what William Cheung himself has told me through the years about this guy or that guy, etc...and of course the list will include many people based upon what I've seen/experienced/heard through the years about them.

And I won't even get into weight categories...for clearly some of the heavyweights who learned a lot from William Cheung would have a built-in advantage when we try to rate them against others of a lighter weight who learned basically the same amount of material.

Anthony Arnett
Jerry Boulding
Johnny Clayton
Blaine Collins
Delroi Flood
Keith Mazza
Joe Moahengi
Shannon Moore
Bill O'Connell
Eric Oram
Victor Parlati
Jesse Quinnones
Phil Redmond
Julian Richardson
Joe Sayah
Rick Spain
Gary Young

Again...the list is very partial - and doesn't include some students of the above mentioned people who are definitely good fighters. (I myself have 5 students who could fit that bill - three of them heavyweights)...and guys like Johhny Clayton and Anthony Arnett - just to name two - each have a whole bunch of students who are good fighters.

[Green Cloud]

Sifu victor P. I noticed that Chris serras wasn't on that list where does this guy fit in. I ask because I have had dealings with this guy in the past and I am trying to figure out what's what if you know what I mean. Please give me a pm if you don't feel like discussing it on the forum or call me joy gin Gus K.


greencloud.net

[Phil Redmond]

Sifu victor P. I noticed that Chris serras wasn't on that list where does this guy fit in. I ask because I have had dealings with this guy in the past and I am trying to figure out what's what if you know what I mean. Please give me a pm if you don't feel like discussing it on the forum or call me joy gin Gus K.


greencloud.net

I know the question was posed to Victor but Chris Serras is a member in good standing of our association and runs a school in Long Island.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Did not your mommy and daddy or master tell there is no best? there is always someone better

I wholeheartedly believe that. Many "competitive" martial artists may seem invincible but in the no rules streets even the average guy can get over on a pro fighter. There are people out there who don't compete and don't have titles that can be dangerous.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Here's an old photo of the first group of TWC guys from 1984-5? I don't remember, Victor probably knows the exact year. Blaine Collins (seated), was the Dai Sihing at the time. Yes, that is Pedro Cepero-Yee behind Blaine Collins.
First NYC TWC group
Phil

[Ultimatewingchun]

That photo was taken in November, 1984...and I'm the good looking guy that Phil Redmond rushed to stand directly in front of so that he could be shown standing next to Blaine... (You only see my face, partial chest, and left arm in the photo.....Da_n that Redmond guy!)

Not to worry: we all know who was teaching most of the good stuff in the classes in those days.

(When Blaine came to town he stayed with me! )


Ha! Ha! (Finally gotcha, Phil... )