Swaztika

[GreenCloudCLF]

It's all evil evil stuff and ultimately Satanic in the most authentic way. Not in the hollywood horror movie way but in the way that real Satanism works. The phrase everyone knows best, Crowley's summary, "Do what thy wilt...." is a real succint summary of Satan's sin. Without this rearangement of the higerarchy, placing "man" at the top and proclaiming that Man is the ultimate determinant of his destiny, then there is no room for the birth of Natzi Germany. I can't even say "the religious structure that they created" because the religious structure predated the Natzis. If it wasn't for Von List taking in a young Hitler as his protoge it's not possible IMO for him to have gone on the the "heights" that he did.

This entire comment is presupposing a Christian mythos. There are plenty of religions based in mysticism that qould not be capable of the atrocities Hitler committed. Neo-Paganism (one of the fastest growing religions in the US) is based on that partial, and out of context, quote by Crowley. The whole quote actually is "An' it harm none, do what thou wilt." Leave out that first part, and sure it sounds like a selfish egocentric policy.

Also Satanism, as the term is used in popular culture, is a misnomer. Christians apply the term Satanism to ANY religion, belief, or act they disagree with. Satanism is an actual religion or belief structure, organized by Anton LeFay (sp?). To group all types of mysticism in with this is a disservice to other cultures and beliefs. In fact Christianity and Judiasm are both steeped in Mystical heritage. Judiasms biggest example is the Qabbalah. And Christianity has the power of prayer, use of incense in ritual, and the original placement of its churches.

[David Jamieson]

'do no harm and do as you will' is found frequently in the thelema texts (google em if you like) and in hermeticism in general.

a lot of the mystical orders spring from hermeticism or the gnostic p.o.v or both or a combination of these.

[GreenCloudCLF]

'do no harm and do as you will' is found frequently in the thelema texts (google em if you like) and in hermeticism in general.

a lot of the mystical orders spring from hermeticism or the gnostic p.o.v or both or a combination of these.

Many pre-Christian religions trace their roots through hermeticism and gnosticism. In fact, these types of belief structures are the first "organized religions", not as in having temples, as they worshipped outdoors, but in that many people shared a common belief structure. It wasthe dawn of Christianity that had forced many religions underground. The term Pagan was used to describe any of the non-mainstream religions (anything other than Christianity, Judiasm, or Islam). And in fact Christianity adopted many of the old religions practices in order to make conversion to the "true" religion easier. The Christmas tree is an example of this.

And my previous comment about the placement of churches being mystical referred to the way that the Christians would build their temples on the land previously used for worshipping by the heathens.

In fact the Christians own Golden Rule is in fact a *******ization of the An' it harm non, do what thou wilt expression.

[SevenStar]

Also Satanism, as the term is used in popular culture, is a misnomer. Christians apply the term Satanism to ANY religion, belief, or act they disagree with.

no. They call other religions pagan. However, admittedly I do know a lot of devout christians who associate certain music - marilyn manson, danzig, etc. with satanism and also associate things like pokemon with demonic practice, or satanism.

And Christianity has the power of prayer, use of incense in ritual, and the original placement of its churches.

that's not mystical, per se. the "power" of prayer comes from God - the center of christianity.

[GreenCloudCLF]

no. They call other religions pagan. However, admittedly I do know a lot of devout christians who associate certain music - marilyn manson, danzig, etc. with satanism and also associate things like pokemon with demonic practice, or satanism.

I was referring to certain practices that are performed in Pagan rituals, that are referred to as satanism, in much the same way you pointed out secular things are referred to as such.

that's not mystical, per se. the "power" of prayer comes from God - the center of christianity.

It has roots in mysticism. It was modeled from chanting of the Druids in Europe, as well as other religions. Spoken prayer has mystical roots. Granted, some Christians use silent prayer, which in and of itself does not have mystical origins. Infact, the use of incense in church is supposed to carry the spoken prayers to heaven.

[SevenStar]

the incencse thing is new to me... I've never been in a christian church that burns incense - is that one of the other judeo-christian religions?

[GreenCloudCLF]

the incencse thing is new to me... I've never been in a christian church that burns incense - is that one of the other judeo-christian religions?

I believe it is most popular in Roman Catholic sects. You can see an altar boy carrying a swinging incense pot whenever the pope (at least the last one) gives mass. Usually at high ranking Bishops and Cardinals masses as well. They are less common in everyday (or every week) ceremonies.

[omarthefish]

I wish someone other than Davie Jameson would show a little real education on the topic. So far he's the only person so give me anything to think about or google.

This entire comment is presupposing a Christian mythos.

Everything I commented on IS part of the Christian mythos. The European magical christan is disctinctly Christian. Even the Germanic recreations. ALL those neo-pagan turn of the century occultists were as christian as you could get. KABALLA is a hebrew word. The Natzi neo-pagan faith was so methodically anti-Chritian/Jewish it could not possibly have sprouted up outside of the Christian mythos. The Wagner Opera...whatsit? Parsival, the core myth of the entire Natzi parti: Grail Myth, as in "the holy Grail of Christ".

Dig deeper.

There are plenty of religions based in mysticism that qould not be capable of the atrocities Hitler committed.

I agree. Take Judaism for example, especially the Hassidic movement. You might want to either rephrase that or figure out what I am actually saying. Maybe ask Jamie Davidson since he clearly understands my point even though he doesn't entirely agree with it.

Neo-Paganism (one of the fastest growing religions in the US)

I am well aware of that and if was not for the depth of my involvement in that movement I wouldn never have found out what horrible roots this movement has.

is based on that partial, and out of context, quote by Crowley. The whole quote actually is "An' it harm none, do what thou wilt." Leave out that first part, and sure it sounds like a selfish egocentric policy.

Leave it in and it's even worse. It harms MANY. It is incredible hubris to think that it harms none because a little freak like Crowley said so.

Also Satanism, as the term is used in popular culture, is a misnomer. Christians apply the term Satanism to ANY religion, belief, or act they disagree with. Satanism is an actual religion or belief structure, organized by Anton LeFay (sp?). To group all types of mysticism in with this is a disservice to other cultures and beliefs.

You are wrong on so many level I don't know where to start. I think the main thing is that you have thrown the term mysticism and tried to pretend that it has something to do with Satanism. What the term is used for in the popular culture is 100% irrelevant to my post. I was apparently not explicit enough when I said, "not the hollywood version but real satanism. You are also showing your further lack of education on the subject to try and narrow the term down to one particular version as if these practices started with Anton Lefay. If I was in the states and had access to my personal library I could point you in the direction of Satanic movements 1000+ years ago. LOTS of them. No one has grouped "all types of mysticism in with this" except in your own imagination. This riff of yours on mysticism is irrelevant to the topic. It's a red herring and a distraction.

In fact the Christians own Golden Rule is in fact a *******ization of the An' it harm non, do what thou wilt expression.

Wrong wrong wrong. I am not certain where the first reference to the golden rule is but you can find it many centuries before that piece of garbage. It is a paraphrase of Rabbi Akiba's summary of the torah many centuries ago. I expect there is a reference in the gospels since it's usually thought of as Christian doctrine but:

http://www.ou.org/NCSY/projects/darc...s%20Golden.htm
An often-recalled mishna is that of the potential convert coming before Hillel, the sage. The man rudely challenged Hillel to explain the whole Torah while he stood on one foot. Hillel complied, raising his foot as he said: "Don’t do to your friend what you would not like to have done to you." He then returned to standing on both feet and continued: "The rest is explanation, now go and learn."

[omarthefish]

the incencse thing is new to me... I've never been in a christian church that burns incense - is that one of the other judeo-christian religions?

Instructions for the preparation of incense are in the Hebrew testament. Parts of it are repeated as part of the morning prayer. Local traditions change and some churches use incense more than others. The eastern churches like the Greek and Russian orthodox tend to have really smokey churches.

Also Satanism, as the term is used in popular culture, is a misnomer. Christians apply the term Satanism to ANY religion, belief, or act they disagree with.

But I don't and haven't used the term in thay way at all. None of that is really relevant to the traditions I have attacked as satanic.

[danmyete]

It can be found within the Nsibidi sacred script of Nigeria and Cameroon and within the Akan royal Adinkra ritual/communication system of Ghana, just to name two.

[David Jamieson]

It can be found within the Nsibidi sacred script of Nigeria and Cameroon and within the Akan royal Adinkra ritual/communication system of Ghana, just to name two.

Yes, no one is disagreeing that it doesn't exist in African culture and history. And it has likely been there for a very long time. What I was making mention of was the independent development and use of the symbol and how that is of some interest in the topic.

Sometimes things are adopted from one culture to another, but strangely enough, there are many cases of no contact and yet similar symbology. Swastika being a pretty good example, but other symbols as well such as a cross for instance which was in use in Egypt long before it became a Christian symbol. Like about 2500 years before Christianity existed.

So if we look at tibetan swastikas, we know that there may have been a cultural influence from the buddhism that came there out of Nepal and India and so, the lamaistic traditions use it as a buddhist symbol. However, one could strangle their mind to death in an attempt at making a connection between the swastikas of Africa and those of Asia. Not to mention the swastikas that are all over precolumbia artwork of the americas and even in later artwork found in North american Natives such as teh navajo who make use of the swastika as well and did so before european contact and likely without post buddha Asians or Africans.

It is found in old celtic remnants, norse antiquities, all over the place there are swastikas, spirals, crosses, circles with a dot in the center and so on as symbology goes. It's really quite fascinating and it's still stumping anthropologists in the here and now as to how all this interconnectivity occurs in the great stream that is us as a species.

[Oso]

7*: as said, definitely a Roman Catholic thing. Most big churches even if only served by a regular priest will commonly use incense for Sunday services. The two churches I went to in Richmond burned incense in every Sunday Mass. But, that was in the 70's. It may not be as prevalent now.

I'd say there would be a big enough Catholic church in your town if you wanted to go check it out.

My father blames his chronic sinus issues on his years as an alter boy in a Greek Orthodox church and having to stand for 2 hours w/ the smoking pot right in front of him.

[Oso]

It is found in old celtic remnants, norse antiquities, all over the place there are swastikas, spirals, crosses, circles with a dot in the center and so on as symbology goes. It's really quite fascinating and it's still stumping anthropologists in the here and now as to how all this interconnectivity occurs in the great stream that is us as a species.

obviously it means it came from the visitors.

I think we're just a big science experiment by some teenager from another dimension.


this was pretty good:

The actual truth is that we have not one iota of a clue as to our origins, why we are alive, what is the universe and so on. All the big questions remain unanswered and will be so as long as we stick to our human condition and examine it with our dull and unknowing minds such as they are.

the bottom line is that people can't handle not knowing...can't handle that when the neurons stop firing...th' th' th' that's all folks!

[omarthefish]

Joseph Cambells stuff explains it good enough for me.

Basically, and this is not a Joseph Campbell summary by any means, you just need to look at what the swatzika symbolizes and then realize that as humans, regardless of culture, we have certain psychological similarities that are not culturally specific and are as hard wired into us as "labs are friendly" and "mice are timid". Some of those traits include our mental and emotional associations with certain kinds of imagery and certain numbers.

There is no culture in the world that doesn't have some version of "the cardinal directions". The numer "one" will always represent unity and 2, duality and 3 will always be thought of as something kind of special, mystic trinities abound.

The swastica is a symbol of the creative/destructive cycle. It is supposed to be a kind of a wheel, like a 4 spoked wheel with the spokes leaving trails. Many early swastikas have curved outer arms. I can't speak for the African tradition because I've never read up on it but the wheel motif for the swastica is common across Asia, South and North America and many European traditions.

It's also common in Ancient Greece motif where it shows up as a symbol for the quaantity "9" and all that it represents in ancient Greek Thought.

It is widely believed to be the oldest and most widespread religious symbol in the entire world.

[David Jamieson]

It is said that science is not so much about answering the question of why is there something but why is there not just nothing.