Swaztika

[Pork Chop]

Okay I'm a little confused. I feel like omar's making fun of my intelligence and I'm not sure it's directed at me or if i should even pay it any mind.

I'm not sure where omar's going with the occult discussion and I understand he's got multiple conversations going on at the moment.

Let me just clarify what I meant.

By Wagner, I wasn't talking Parsifal, i was talking Der Ring des Nibelungen (Ring Cycle), with Wotan (Odin) and the familiar gods of the norse legends.

Yes, I know the Grail stories were Christianity meets buddhism.

However, I did dig up this interesting collection of reviews/discussions about Kohler's "Wagner's Hitler" on amazon-
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/074...lance&n=283155

I'm assuming by "Astara" you're referring to the Nazi religion based on Tibetan Bonpas (black magic) and not "Asatru", the modern day term for heathens, meaning "true to the Aesir"; or the pagan holiday "Ostara" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostara )

This link (yeah I know, it's wikipedia) does a decent job of showing that the swastika existed in pre-christian europe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastik...ean_traditions

Hitler had a huge obsession with art and the opera. Again, all I've got is one so-so link, but I have a hard time seeing hitler's obsession with Tibet predating his 16th birthday:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar...hitler/art.htm

I guess I have a problem understanding why it would be so out of the question for a guy, super-proud of pre-Christian Germanic heritage, who so hated non-Germans, to the point of Genocide, to embrace a symbol used by pre-Christian Germans.


About the "ALL those neo-pagan turn of the century occultists were as christian as you could get" comment:
I can't speak for the occultists but Asatru falls under the neopagan banner and I wouldn't say it's grounded in Christianity (though it's impossible to discout a Christian influence).

The roots of Asatru date back further than the 1st century Roman Historian Tacitus:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html

A lot of the source material for today's heathenism was also the source that Wagner drew upon for his Ring Cycle, ie the Eddas and the Poetic Eddas.


Hate the idea of contributing to an internet argument and don't really dig people who talk down to others; but I thought I'd at least make an attempt to clarify some of what i was saying. Wagner was no saint; but he produced some good work. I don't think the racism that used heathenism & heathen lore as a vehicle should define heathenism.

[SimonM]

I wish someone other than Davie Jameson would show a little real education on the topic. So far he's the only person so give me anything to think about or google.

*Cracks his knuckles*

Alright Omar I'll weigh in on this one for you. I am actually quite familliar with the history of Golden Dawn, OtO and the Rosicrucians. I just wasn't particularly interested in arguing over the relative piety of S.L. "MacGregor" Mathers and his crew.

The thing is that although they were considered heretical by the mainstream of Christianity most Christian mystics believed themselves to be highly pious. Note I said most, Crowley certainly did not. Islam and Judaeism are both slightly more forgiving of mysticism than Christianity. Let's first look at Judaeism which is the source of most of the numerology in use in Europe. The Kabbalah (choose your spelling of choice, I can't read hebrew) is the most oft-cited example of Jewish mysticism and, in fact, it had spilled over into Christianity as early as the 13th century.

Two strong examples of mysticism within Judaeism are the story of the Prague Golem (who was eventually destroyed for being a bit too close to human for the comfort of the Rabbi who animated it - he agreed with the rest of Judaeica that the creation of actual people was reserved for god alone) and the text called the "Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage".

The Abramelin text was highly significant in the Golden Dawn schism. Mathers had gone to Paris where a very old manuscript of this book (which purports to have been written/transcribed in it's most recent form in Austria during the 1200s) had been found translating it from the archaic form of french it was writen in to English. The mathers translation is still the standard today.

The author of the non-extant 13th century Austrian manuscript was a man who refers to himself only as Abraham the Jew. He in turn claims (like most medaeval magicians) that his magic is the true magic granted to Solomon by an archangel and used to enslave demons to construct his temple. He claims that he recieved this system of Solomanic magic from a hermit in either Egypt or the middle east. The book makes two slightly contradictory claims. First it claims that a person should not convert to a new faith in order to use the magic because of the importance of the sincerity of their belief. Second it claims that faith in God is necessary. It holds these mainly because the book only really considers the Christian, Jewish and Islamic experience. The author had no interaction with Hindus for instance.

Anyway while Mathers was away he left Yeats in charge of Golden Dawn. Crowley chafed at Yeats' leadership and tried to take over. However he failed and split to from OtO with a few other members of Golden Dawn. This was a death knell for the older secret society though and they eventually collapsed.

Now onto Islamic mysticism. There is a small sect of Islam called Sufiism. These guys are an ecclectic mix of Islam and nearly Ch'an like sentements. However they believe that they can overcome the limits of their physical form thorough their understanding of the divine. High ranking Sufis have been purported to levitate, communicate telepathically or even teleport from one place to another. These guys are neither the mainstream nor are they the frothing, rabid, fundamentalist boogeymen of Islam we get fed on the news. But they are also not particularly persecuted for their beliefs by mainstream Islam and are generally accepted as being faithful Islamics (if a bit wierd).

So I disagree with you that faith within the Hebraic religious group is necessarily at odds with magic or with mysticism. That being said I will admit that while faith and magic are very much able to co-exist it is never within the mainstream of these religions. Furthermore I'd say that Christianity is the least welcoming of magic (magic interested sects like the Gnostics were regularly declared heretical) while of the three Judaeism is probably the most welcoming of it due to the relative importance of King Solomon to thier faith.

[omarthefish]

Okay I'm a little confused. I feel like omar's making fun of my intelligence and I'm not sure it's directed at me or if i should even pay it any mind.

I'm not sure where omar's going with the occult discussion and I understand he's got multiple conversations going on at the moment.

Was making fun of GreenCloud, not you and not his intelligence, his apparent ignorance on the subject. I think you felt it was aimed at you because I felt compelled to comment on the Wagner.

By Wagner, I wasn't talking Parsifal, i was talking Der Ring des Nibelungen (Ring Cycle), with Wotan (Odin) and the familiar gods of the norse legends.

Yes, I know the Grail stories were Christianity meets buddhism.

Cool. I missed that. Parsifal, I think, was more influential in the creation of the Natzi mythology. I never even thought of Wagner as being particularly bad and think that it's kind of stupid that his works were (are?) banned in Israel. It's not like he composed anything for the Natzi's. It's just that his choice of story content was really convenient for them. It fit the mythology they were creating.

I'm assuming by "Astara" you're referring to the Nazi religion based on Tibetan Bonpas (black magic) and not "Asatru", the modern day term for heathens, meaning "true to the Aesir"; or the pagan holiday "Ostara"

Yes, that's exactly what I meant but AFAIK, they are just different spellings of the same term. It is a rare "heathen" indeed that has ever heard of the connection. It's not like there is a lineage from one to the other but IMO they share the same roots only the modern day "pagans" for the most part are unaware of this darker side of their history. The old Natzi version was also a reaction to an overindustrialized society and a reactionary movement to return to a romanticised version of the "old ways". Get back to nature and so on. Same old, same old.

[quote]...but I have a hard time seeing hitler's obsession with Tibet predating his 16th birthday:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar...hitler/art.htm

16th B-day?!? That's pretty early. I would have guessed it wasn't untill after his association with Von List that he got "that way".

About the "ALL those neo-pagan turn of the century occultists were as christian as you could get" comment:
I can't speak for the occultists but Asatru falls under the neopagan banner and I wouldn't say it's grounded in Christianity (though it's impossible to discout a Christian influence).

I have to admit I overstated that a bit. It's not simple influenced. It's reactionary. For example, there is nothing so typical about any given epoch as their own attitudes towards their place in history. Part of the humour of Austin Powers is just looking at a 60's attitude about the 21st century. Those sci-fi movies of the 60's say FAR more about the 60's than they do about the past 6 years. The neo-pagan movement is, IMO, far more shaped by the modern Judeo-Christian enviroment that gave birth to it than by any actual ancient pagan belief systems.

The roots of Asatru date back further than the 1st century Roman Historian

Yes, but there is no continuous connection. It's like the relationship between the Egyptology of the Tarot deck and actual Egyptian studies.

I hope I've clarified a bit. Gotta get to class. bye.

[omarthefish]

Simon,

Surprise surprise.....

I have no time to even read that right now. You wrote while I was posting. I have a class to teach and will read your stuff on my lunch break.

Now this thread is heating up!

[David Jamieson]

Yeah and we haven't even touched on what happened when Krishnamurti was appointed to head the order of the eastern star. hee hee, in his wisdom, he immediately dissolved it.

needless to say, they were slightly ****ed at him for that.

[GreenCloudCLF]

Omar,

First, you are rightabout my simplyfing of the term "Satanism". There were many things predating LeFay's works that Christians considered Satanic. Witchcraft and the like...I was oversimplyfing that.

As for the darker roots of mysticism that you claim most neo-pagans are either ignorant about, or ignore. This falls into the same category as Islams who condemn the "Holy Jihad" of killing innocents for their God. Or Christians who barely acknowledge the existence of the Crusades or the inquisiton (No one expects the Spanish inquisition)...

Religion is an individual belief, based on a group conciousness. It works in the way the collective unconcious works (much like you were speaking about the similarities in numbers across cultures). To completely dismiss a religion based on how it was warped and used at one time, or one person is ludicrious. That would be akin to dismantling the Roman Catholic church based on the actions of a small number of their preists.

While I think it is important to learn from the past, so we are not doomed to repeat it, completely ruling something out due to one transgression is laughable. These types of religions existed for thousands of years before Hitlers assimilation of them into his beliefs.

[FuXnDajenariht]

the word aryan did not have really widespread negative connotations until this century especially after world war 2. when you dismiss someone as rascist for using the word aryan you have to look carefully at their historical context. i studied Blavatsky in depth and to say that she has an alternative view is history is and understatement. so to believe that she is NOT referring to the modern definition of an aryan is not a stretch of the imagination in the least. aryan originally stood for a class of Hindu that invaded/migrated from Central Asia into the Middle East, India and parts of Europe. the term got changed because of rascist Colonialists and Imperialist believing that nothing good ever comes about without the direct influence of white Europeans. but its disputed exactly who the Aryans were or where they came from or how much influence they actually had on Indian culture. the entire invasion scenario is even under scrutiny for not having adequate evidence.

anyway, symbols and word meanings change over time and you can't compare the usage of one word with one era in time to another. the Nazis and most racists in general will change any piece of history to fit their own agenda, and when something has negative imagery its almost impossible to take that away. most people dont even know about the swatstikas long peaceful history. well the same can be said for the word aryan. just look things up before dismissing them.

[omarthefish]

This is going to take more than one post so I can keep clear who I am talking to.

FuXn,

I have not said anything negative whatsoever about the swastica symbol and I am well aware of what the word "Aryan" can mean. The context is not confusing here. We are not discussing the linguistic groups of central Asia.

The use of the word "Aryan" that the Natzi's adopted comes directly from Blavatsky's work. She outlines 7 "super" races of the ancient past, the Atlanteans, Aryans and others who had various supoerhuman powers, psyhic powers and stuff like that and explains how they lost all of that due to interbreeding and stuff. The Natzi "superman" is taken directly out of Blavatsky's work. The basis for their eugenics program was also an attempt to put into practice Blavatsky's theories.

It's all there in "The Secret Doctrine". Then look a bit at the sources of the eugenics program...IF you can find anything. I used to have a really good series of British documentary's on the occult origins of the party but they got lost in my travels.

GreenCloud,

To completely dismiss a religion based on how it was warped and used at one time, or one person is ludicrious.

I am not really talking about actual, authentic pagan belief systems. I am speaking specifically of the 20th century wiccan and ritual magik movement. Rather than referring to bad things that have sprung up out of the movement, I am saying that it was pretty bad to begin with. I am not refering to "Satanism" as a religion per se. It exists withing the Catholic church, Judaism and Islam as well. I am reffering to the specific practices and belief stuctures which, if they are deconstructed, amount to worshiping Satan.

It's not for nothing that he is traditionally supposed to be the most beautiful of all the angles and originally closest to God. The bat winged, goat legged, spiked tail version is not what you get up front. First you get a really in depth examination of the Chritian (or Jewish) esoteric structure. Only after being led through endless initiations and more and more layers of complexity does the structure arise that puts the individual and more signifigantly the "will" in center stage and the a priori assumptions that define the Judeo-Christian tradition get pushed aside.

That would be akin to dismantling the Roman Catholic church based on the actions of a small number of their preists.

No. In my case it would be akin to dismantling the Roman Catholic church based on the actions of Paul or whoever actually established the curch to begin with. I have not spoken of off shoots and various modern day incidences. I am asking people to take a long hard look at the roots of what they practice. The modern day version is evil in it's core. I am not talking about ligthing candles and incense or being inspired by am alternate mythology. That's not where the problem lies. That's just the window dressing.

Evil is more subtle than that. That's why there is so much of it. If it was as obvious as it is in the movies then it really wouldn't be so difficult to fight it.

(see that? Now I'm fighting evil!!! ) [i] <---only half joking.

[omarthefish]

Simon,

"The thing is that although they were considered heretical by the mainstream of Christianity most Christian mystics believed themselves to be highly pious.".....So I disagree with you that faith within the Hebraic religious group is necessarily at odds with magic or with mysticism. That being said I will admit that while faith and magic are very much able to co-exist it is never within the mainstream of these religions.

"

Not just most. I'd say virtually all of them. Same thing for Judaism or Islam. Mysticism is essentially a pious activity. The has nothing to do with "mysterious" or "magical". It means, in a religious context, a belief system that is based on a personal or transpersonal experience of the divine rather than on intellect and study. On of the distinguishing factors of Jewish mysticism is how mainstream and orthodox it is. The reasons are somewhat complicated but I'll get into a couple of them.

"So I disagree with you that faith within the Hebraic religious group is necessarily at odds with magic or with mysticism. That being said I will admit that while faith and magic are very much able to co-exist it is never within the mainstream of these religions.

You really need to separate the terms magik and mysticism. They are somwhate related but are really very different. Magik is explicitly forbidden in Jewish tradition whereas mysticism is the very core. Same thing for faith and magik. How could you have a magikal practice with no faith? The idea is absurd.

The Hassidic Jews, those guys with the fedoras and the braided beards, THOSE are mystics. They are also super orthodox. Ironically, in the Jewish tradition, it tends to be the MORE orthodox or conservatice Jews that are the mystics and the reformers, the more liberal, relaxed practitioners are the ones who stick to humanistic and historical-anthropological explanations for the Biblical texts and emphaise Talmidic study over Kabalistic.

Part of the reason is that the traditional rule for studying Kabala is that you must be 40 years old minimum AND you must have demonstrated mastery of the entire Torah (Hebrew Bible), the Talmud and other religious texts. The Talmud is more of a legal text that trains your thinking and therefore makes sure you have strong enough dialectical skills to avoid getting lost in the vaguaries of the Zohar, the Bahir and other esoteric texts. Biblical texts like Ezekial or Song of Songs are also often forbidden to younger or less educated students. This is a far cry from the catch as catch can religious training of modern day neo-pagans.

In any case, it is because of these incredibly stringent requirements for mystical study that what IS produced is so often accepted by the rest of the orthodoxy. The whole point of religion is to bring people closer to God and THAT is pretty much the definition of the mystical experience. It is direct communion with God. So when the equivalent of a Phd in the faith with 15 years of research in the field who has had his work reviewed, critiqued and challenged in a way very similar to what happens in the scientific community, when all that happens and the ideas still stand......well there's not much to cry about. It's not mainstream but it IS orthodox.

I'd like to get into the place of Magic in the Jewish tradition but my two posts are long enough already. I'm writing a book here. heh.

[Green Cloud]

Omarthefish, that's realy interesting stuff. Please continue, and can you expand a little more about the Wiken religion??

[Ultimatewingchun]

THE FOLLOWING QUOTE ABOUT HELENA BLAVATSKY IS ESSENTIALLY CORRECT:

"...the word aryan did not have really widespread negative connotations until this century especially after world war 2. when you dismiss someone as rascist for using the word aryan you have to look carefully at their historical context. i studied Blavatsky in depth and to say that she has an alternative view is history is and understatement. so to believe that she is NOT referring to the modern definition of an aryan is not a stretch of the imagination in the least. aryan originally stood for a class of Hindu that invaded/migrated from Central Asia into the Middle East, India and parts of Europe. the term got changed because of rascist Colonialists and Imperialist believing that nothing good ever comes about without the direct influence of white Europeans. but its disputed exactly who the Aryans were or where they came from or how much influence they actually had on Indian culture. the entire invasion scenario is even under scrutiny for not having adequate evidence.

anyway, symbols and word meanings change over time and you can't compare the usage of one word with one era in time to another. the Nazis and most racists in general will change any piece of history to fit their own agenda, and when something has negative imagery its almost impossible to take that away. most people dont even know about the swatstikas long peaceful history. well the same can be said for the word aryan. just look things up before dismissing them."


***BUT THE FOLLOWING QUOTE ABOUT BLAVATSKY IS MISLEADING IN THE EXTREME :

"The use of the word "Aryan" that the Nazi's adopted comes directly from Blavatsky's work. She outlines 7 "super" races of the ancient past, the Atlanteans, Aryans and others who had various supoerhuman powers, psyhic powers and stuff like that and explains how they lost all of that due to interbreeding and stuff. The Nazi "superman" is taken directly out of Blavatsky's work. The basis for their eugenics program was also an attempt to put into practice Blavatsky's theories."


***HELENA BLAVATSKY'S works, including the SECRET DOCTRINE...while outlining the black magicians who UNNATURALLY AND DEMONICALLY tried to create "superman" races while in Atlantis ages ago...were part of what eventually became known as an Aryan race...whose descendents were more-or-less described in the first quote...but Blavatsky - being a "white" magicican as opposed to a "black" one (and I don't use the words to denote skin color - but rather moral character)....SHE OPPOSED RASCISM OF ANY KIND.

And her occult knowledge was co-opted by the Nazi's...as was their habit with any occult or mystical teaching and teachers.

And getting back to the original question posed in the first post of this thread
about the meaning of the swastika:

The cross within a circle symbolizes the breaking up of the ONE (God) into the many (seemingly) at the dawn of every new world period...the circle by itself representing the ONE (as the first manifestation within the visible, material universe)...

and the cross by itself is the male and the female breakup of the ONE into the many. (I say seemingly because this is an ACT OF CREATION BY THE ABSOLUTE...and the universe is a "reflection" of GOD...and not God - the Absolute...itself).

(These are the real teachings of Blavatsky - clearly very different than the Nazi ideology that will be outlined later in this post).


And then the two sexes begin the SPINNING OF THE WHEEL OF LIFE as we know it within the universe of matter...spinning in a COUNTER CLOCKWISE DIRECTION ...which symbolizes LIFE.


BUT HITLER'S NAZI SWASTIKA reversed the direction of the spinning wheel: symbolizing DEATH AND DESTRUCTION.

(So if you imagine a cross with extra lines at each point at a 90 degree angle to the lines that form the cross - but each extra set of lines pointing toward a move in a counter clockwise direction - that's the true ancient swastika symbol).

The demonic intelligence that Hitler invited into his already vile human soul wanted to kill off, destroy, and/or enslave any other "race" of men other than it's own - based upon blood lines. This is the essence of Black Magic at it's most evil...the demonic aspect of the lower human mind...(as opposed to the divine spiritual mind within the reach potentially of every man)...

and so the demonic lower degenerate consciouness and "will" within certain men sought to overturn it's natural position in the universe - it (he) would "BECOME".....GOD - THE ABSOLUTE, SUPREME SPIRIT...(insteading of becoming one with the Divine Laws and reach conscious Godhood (as a true "son" of God...) through acts that are in harmony with the laws of LIFE (ie.- and murder in order to "rule" is obviously not in harmony with God's laws - regardless of what religion one follows)....no...the Nazi's wanted to answer to no one or anything other than their own whims, desires, lusts, and egotism. This was the plan that Hitler had for himself - and for the alleged new super "race" of men who would follow after him within the "thousand year reich".

FILTH.

[Chief Fox]

BUT HITLER'S NAZI SWASTIKA reversed the direction...symbolizing DEATH AND DESTRUCTION.

His swastika had the wheels going the other way.

Hitler didn't change the symbol at all. He took an existing symbol that was internationally recognized as a symbol for good luck and purposely associated it with his regime.

Yes he was evil and disturbed BUT the guy knew his marketing.

Symbol for good luck: http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html

Nazi symbol: http://www.hcc.mnscu.edu/programs/de..._id_75722.html

[CFT]

[B]BUT HITLER'S NAZI SWASTIKA reversed the direction of the spinning wheel: symbolizing DEATH AND DESTRUCTION.

There are both left and right facing versions of the swastika.

Look at this again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[David Jamieson]

yes the swastika can be seen from back or front and it will show one way or the other depending on how you view it.

Hitler did tilt the swastika in his nazi symbol version.

If you look at the official nazi swastika, you'll see it is tilted where all the others, are not. That's the difference in how it is shown.

anybody know the ideas associated with the swastika to the nazis? why did they choose it? what did it represent to them? I don't think we've touched on that here.

[omarthefish]

Yeah. The Natzi swastica went through quite a few transformations and I have heard that thing about him reversing the direction and all before and as it has already been pointed out, that is complete bunk.

Hitler didn't even pick the swastica as the official symbol. He had a "minister of the occult" to do that sort of thing. I'm handicapped by being an ocean and half a continent between me and my books on this but that guy who kind of went nuts and flew a small plane across the English channel basically delivering himself into the hands of the British? Anyone remember that guys name? Goebbels ? He was the one standardizing Natzi symbolism and paraphenelia. The use of the swastica as a Natzi emblem predates Hitler as a Natzi symbol. You should look into some of the clashes that happened when Hitlre decided to get rid of the stormtroopers in favor of his more elite "SS" forces. The strormtroopers were the "brownshirts" I think they were calling them and were more like todays skinheads. Working class and undereducated .
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In other news:

Guido Von List - http://experts.about.com/e/g/gu/Guido_von_List.htm

He was a prominant disciple of Blavatski. From the link above:

List’s influence continued to grow after the official founding of the Guido-von-List-Gesellschaft on March 02nd, 1908. From 1908 through to 1912, new members included .....[really long list of prominant political figures].....

....As the list demonstrates, the growth of nationalism within Germany during the
late 19th-early 20th century, culminating in the Third Reich of Nazi Germany as a grotesque and highly extreme extent of the growth, provided an ideal audience of people who were already predisposed to accept List's ideas and unidentifiable personal gnosis of the Armanen way.

Similar information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido-v...t-Gesellschaft

The other name that you need to look into is J&#246;rg Lanz von Liebenfels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J&#246;rg_Lanz_von_Liebenfels

But the real prize (other than List) is Dietrich Eckart who is IMO the guy who was responsable for bringing Hitler into the fold and mentoring him into the "man" he was to become.

"Follow Hitler! He will dance, but it is I who have called the tune!"

-Dietrich Eckart

http://www.intelinet.org/swastika/swasti08.htm

Just google any of the names I have given you guys and pick an article. Then the other side of my "grudge" against Blavatski is that aside from just making up here whole story out of whole cloth, claiming lineage from some Tibetans in the late 19th century even thought she shows no evidence of speaking the language OR haveing any particular grasp of Tibetan Buddism, is that you can't find anything GOOD to have come from her teachings. I can present this huge laundry list of really evil dudes who just fell in love with her work but can't find ANYTHING positive to have come of it. So regardless of here professes anti-racism (hard to believe such a thing in a time before we even thought in those terms really) her work just happens to be REALLY REALLY good for creating eitehr satanic or simply inhuman theosophical constructs.

My case against modern day neo-paganism is much weaker. I also find it more innocent, less offensive etc but basically just because I believe most of the practitioners don't really know what they are doing and have honestly good intentions. But the structure is the same as the nastier stuff just with less malicious intent. In my personal experience it's just ritual magik for girls. The only historical links I can find that are continuous to the present also come from the turn of the century German mystic revival. The popular religion created by the Natzis for the uninitiated, the common folk of Germany at the time was basically what today passes for Wicca.

Just had to add that this site:

http://www.intelinet.org/swastika/swascont.htm

is full of gems.