WC vs. MMA link

[Merryprankster]

One can use this statment just as well for every other martial style. Why don't you pose the same question to every other style purporting to teach a fighting style? Why don't you and your like make it your life's mission to validify other style's fighting effectiveness?

To the first part of this question, I DO pose that question. I operate from two premises when I do this:

1. Sportive combative events are the closest approximation of a real fight you can engage in legally, with reasonable measures to ensure fighter safety. In response to the inevitable "But the ring has rules and the street doesn't, and we train for no rules," my response is "No, you don't. Everybody trains with rules in place to protect them while training. What people always disagree on is what set of rules is 'more realistic' whatever that means.

2. The second premise is that I presume everybody understands their limitations. I'm basically a sport grappler. I have limited striking training from boxing, but I don't pretend to be anything I'm not. I operate from the not too unrealistic expectations that others should know, understand, recognize and acknowledge their limitations as well. Everytime I hear a new white belt talk about "BJJ is the BEST, it's so technical, it's so perfect, after a few months, nothing will stop me (except a guy better at BJJ)" I just smile and nod. Everybody gets enamored of their style, but this is the wrong venue for faith (as applied to a skill set vs faith in yourself).

To the second part, your comment is clearly supposed to be antagonistic. Who do you mean by "your like?" I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be negative. If you got your panties in a bunch because I stated a simple fact of logic (which, btw, I obviously apply to others), then I don't know what to tell you. What I expect, is that you are asking why people like me, who maybe insist that somebody back up their claim when they make it, don't run around ensuring that the claim is backed up. To that, I answer: I don't care, and it's not my responsibility. I couldn't care less what you do or don't do or can or can't accomplish. I could focus on that, but then I'd be doing that instead of learning my sport. Not a good return on my investment. It's not my responsibility because I'm not running around making a claim. I'm just saying that if you MAKE one, you should be able to provide evidence.

My only point was simple: When somebody makes a claim, it is up to them to prove it, not up to the rest of us to disprove it. I'm not sure why that upsets you so much. I personally don't care what art anybody does. If they train well, they will be able to get results, within the confines of their personal attributes.

I think there are a lot of reasons why WC guys might not compete in MMA type comps across the board, both honest good ones and others that are not so good (I call those excuses, vice reasons). I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with your comment about the culture. I don't think there is a culture of competition there, and if there is, it's directed at other venues. Certainly COMPETING in such an event is NOT a requirement for excellent skill. However, such a venue IS a convenient, open and validated place to demonstrate skill, if you are trying to back up a claim.

You should count on your common sense to avoid/get you out of these perdicaments.

Amen. "Self-defense," "on the street," are functions of awareness. Actual FIGHTING skill is, IMO, very much a minor part of that. If you have to fight, you've failed the self-defense part.

[Ultimatewingchun]

This has been an insane thread...I agree. And I think jmdrake has made a lot of sense.

Firstly...the guy in the first clip was not a wing chun guy. So why he's being held as a standard to compare wing chun with is ridiculous....and then there are people on this thread who would normally destroy such a guy with criticism actually defending him against the wing chun people on this forum who criticized his performance - the same way these people would (and do).

So clearly the same usual suspects are doing the "wing chun sucks thing". Which has something to do with their issues - not wing chun's.

AND YET MANY WING CHUN PEOPLE TAKE THE BAIT ALL THE TIME !!!

Why is that?

Because they (certain wing chun people) know that there is a large grain of truth in the criticisms...not because wing chun sucks - but because their training methods suck.

But different training methods would not only bring out the strengths of the system is an unmistakable manner for all to see (ie.- look...here's a clip of some real good wing chun fighting) - since part of the different training methods I'm referring to is realistic full contact sparring against opponent's with skills in other arts....

BUT ALSO - different training methods would also expose some weaknesses within the system and a solution...(ie.- the long range work needed to get to the very close standup infight range that wing chun is famous for...or the ability to fight in the clinch when the arms or body has been lock up..or defending against takedowns...or fighting on the ground)...

and then the need to make some "unconventional" adjustments would become clear.

Just how much "unconventional" adjustments would be found necessary is still unclear (I have my own ideas - as do some other wing chun people)...but we won't really know - as some sort of consensus - until there's more wing chun people doing more things competitively...and in an organized fashion somehow.

And then wing chun would move on into the real world of 2006 martial arts instead of clinging to the yesterdays of Yip Man, William Cheung, Wong Shun Leung, Yuen Kay San, Bruce Lee, Gary Lam, Victor Kan, Leung Sheung, Duncan Leung, etc.

How cool was it when wing chun bare knuckled rooftop fights were the standard?
How cool was it when Mas Oyama's style was the ultimate in toughness?
How cool was it when Japanese judo and jiu jitsu was the rage after World War 2?
How cool was it when Bruce Lee came along with JKD and changed everything?
How cool was it when full contact karate (and kickboxing) changed everything?
How cool was it when Royce Gracie's BBJ groundfighting dominated the UFC?
And now people like Fedor Emelianko's MMA approach dominates...

How cool is that?

But threads like this one will continue on ad infinitum and ad nauseum until the wingchunners learn how to shut the mouths of the people who like to troll by getting more realistic in their approach to training competitively - and with real contact - against skilled resisting opponents...ie.- realistic wing chun sparring tournaments....entering into nhb type tournaments (and kudos to Alan Orr's guys in this regard)...and just an all-around attitude of "training to fight".

Then it will be very cool!

And for those who want to be wing chun warriors who don't spar all out...but prefer doing forms, and chi sao, and some form of light wing chun vs. wing chun sparring - and this is how they'll spend 90% of their training time...fine...but then don't get into endless arguments with those who want to troll you - who just want to pick on you "because you're there".

[Dark Knight]

IO grabbed this from mma.tv

"LOL, ok here is the story.
John was going to fight the guy for 5k and then I was going to fight him for anothedr 5k. The fight was a full no-rules fight. The kung fu guy had posted in a forum that the UFC and Pride were fake and if eye gauging (sp) and bitting you're allowed he would beat any fighter at ANY weight class.

Our friend Dale ask him if he would fight a guy who was 250lbs and the guy said that it would be better because it would just prove his point even more.

So Dale propose two fights, one with John and one with someone his own weight (me). You can see me on the background with a knee pad on next to "Caique", our BJJ instructor at the time.

The voice on the background is of Bo Hershberger, brown belt from Caique, really close friend of John's.

Dale was the guy that put up the money on our side (10k)and keep half off the winning's, but only John fought because the guy's arm got broken and so he could not fight me.

THe kung fu guy admited his style was crap on his site at the time and got **** from all the other "mastes" out there, so he offer to put up 5k out of his own money to see them fight John or I and they all refused; their excuse you may ask???

They said that they did not want to KILL US, and that's what would happen if they had a no-rules fight against us. LOL!!!

Later guys,

Mauricio Zingano"

[leejunfan]

guys.... this thread is a year old. This is the same old tiring topic... MMA vs.... wing chun vs..... yadda yadda yadda.... get an original thought already

Here are the facts about the video clip that started this thread. NONE OF US WERE THERE!

So let this thread die already.... along with the entire MMA vs WCK thing. Want to prove something?..... get out there and fight/compete. Until then.... if you're doing nothing but posting video's and critiquing them from your arm chair.... you don't know SQUAT! Most of you people who post the MMA vs whatever videos have never competed a day in your lives..... so shut it already

OK... rant over

[Dave P]

I'm certain this 'kungfu'guy can't be a 'wingchun'guy. Good wingchun guys woulnd't rush in and kick high with a 'round' kick...

[Knifefighter]

Here are the facts about the video clip that started this thread. NONE OF US WERE THERE!

I was there.

The guy was not WC. He was a San Soo guy.

The San Soo guys actually wanted to have five fights, each against different styles, but no other styles stepped up. Because of this, there were going to be three fights, each occuring every other week... John was first, Mauricio was to be second, and I was to be third.

Since his arm was broken and he couldn't fight anymore, he offered to back any other TMA guys who wanted to step in, but none did.

Before the event, all his students were convinced that he was going to destroy John... probably because they had never seen him fight for real. Like most "masters", he had a huge rep. The stories I heard about him before the event were pretty incredible. He had supposedly done some serious damage to people in street fights. He had taught law enforcement and had endorsements from a variety of people, but no one had ever seen him fight for real against someone big, strong, and skilled.

He is a nice guy and I still see him around. He was just a bit deluded about his abilities.

[lawrenceofidaho]

I was there.

The guy was not WC. He was a San Soo guy.

The San Soo guys actually wanted to have five fights, each against different styles, but no other styles stepped up. Because of this, there were going to be three fights, each occuring every other week... John was first, Mauricio was to be second, and I was to be third.

Since his arm was broken and he couldn't fight anymore, he offered to back any other TMA guys who wanted to step in, but none did.

Before the event, all his students were convinced that he was going to destroy John... probably because they had never seen him fight for real. Like most "masters", he had a huge rep. The stories I heard about him before the event were pretty incredible. He had supposedly done some serious damage to people in street fights. He had taught law enforcement and had endorsements from a variety of people, but no one had ever seen him fight for real against someone big, strong, and skilled.

He is a nice guy and I still see him around. He was just a bit deluded about his abilities.

Fortunately for me, I was able to learn what I could do with wing chun (and what I could not) in an MMA environment without getting a shoulder wrecked....

Cross-training with MMA fighters will be an extremely enlightening experience for anyone who has trained exclusively in TMAs.

[aaron baum]

hello guys..my name is aaron and i train under Alan Orr in Chu Sau Lei....

if you got to

http://www.alanorr.co.uk/htdocs/nhb/fightreview.html

you can see pics and reviews of our experiences in MMA...all i can say is that competing is bloody hardwork...yet i have learned so much from it you wouldnt believe..whatever fighting system you train in, especailly Wing chun, you should be able to punch, kick not get thrown on the floor and mangled etc....these are your basic tools, and if they cant stand up in the ring how are the higher level things supposed to work under pressure...

the ring makes you so robust, and you learn how to deal with all the emotions under the sun, similar emotions to those generated on the street...fear, anger, excitement, worry....

you can only forge a sword in the heat of the fire...

PlUS...we have so much more than everyone else in the sensitivity of controlling and feeling someone elses structure due to chi sau etc...so in my mind Wing Chun is perfect for the ring if used properly....the clinch to me is a beautiful thing, it means we are in range to use our short range power whereas most others need to windup there strikes...

and it is a beautiful thing when youve been training with people who are so tight and hard to hit and then you come up against a boxer who stands one sided, only really has straight right, jab and hook....holes everywhere to hit baby!

best

aaron

[Knifefighter]

...we have so much more than everyone else in the sensitivity of controlling and feeling someone elses structure due to chi sau etc...so in my mind Wing Chun is perfect for the ring if used properly....
and it is a beautiful thing when youve been training with people who are so tight and hard to hit and then you come up against a boxer who stands one sided, only really has straight right, jab and hook....holes everywhere to hit baby!

First of all... congratulations on getting in there an mixing it up.

However... I believe you guys are fighting with no head shots. Hard to compare too much when you take the head out.

Will you guys be fighting with strikes to the head anytime soon?

Also, I'm not sure where I saw WC being used in any of those clips. Seemed more like boxing with Muay Thai legs and knees and finishing with submission grappling on the ground to me. Not that there's anything wrong with that...
I've always said when you fight for real, it's all boxing, kickboxing and grappling.

I'd be interested to hear what the WC purists have to say regarding the clips.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Will you guys be fighting with strikes to the head anytime soon?

Also, I'm not sure where I saw WC being used in any of those clips. Seemed more like boxing with Muay Thai legs and knees and finishing with submission grappling on the ground to me. Not that there's anything wrong with that...
I've always said when you fight for real, it's all boxing, kickboxing and grappling.

I'd be interested to hear what the WC purists have to say regarding the clips."


***I WAS THINKING the same thing. But since I often use a similar approach to get close - I'm going to offer a theory that perhaps Aaron might confirm or deny. I notice the body shots used going to both sides of the opponent's body in a way that's similar to attacking the shoulder lines that I've written about in the past. (In order to get to very close wing chun range while protecting the gates and possibly creating a bridge). Only Alan Orr's guys seem to be using more rounded punches to do this and I mostly use more of a straight line horizontal boxing type punch approach to do this.

But aside from that - I don't see any real transitions to vertical wing chun punch attacks going on. (Or wing chun blocking, parrying, pak, lop, bong, tan, garn, etc...either...as a matter of fact). Am I missing something in your vids?

Aside from attacking the shoulder lines (which is a wing chun concept in some circles) - I don't see much of anything resembling a wing chun type attack. Although the overall effectiveness of the fighting method you guys use seems pretty good.

[aaron baum]

hello guys...cheers for the congrats

Neil has had 3 full Pro fights, and i fought semi pro on sunday...semipro is full contact standing (fists, elbows, knees, kicks) and no headstrikes on the floor...Neil won his last 2 fights in 70 seconds combined time...i won in 4 mins after rocking him real good and finishing with a guillotine...the oponnents have been jiujitsu guys, army and navy boxers and a wrestlers, so weve battled a good range of different styles and energies....

wing chun is a chinese boxing system...and as such, we punch, kick and elbow, plus utilise chin na in our grappling and clinch....if you go to

http://www.alanorr.co.uk/htdocs/imag...ightfactor.htm

theres a pic of neil (2nd large one) which shows wing chun mechanics in pure real time....no need to lap sau if your fist and body do the job, nice and simple...his body structure is like a bow under tension, hips in, weight down, body and legs loaded into the floor ready to expload from the floor through the body in to the fist....the jewel that SLT teaches you if done correctly...

we do use a curved punch..a whipping punch...there are many more angles to use than just straight...and if the gap to hit needs a circular arc then use it...but the elbow is always down and linked to the hip...as the form teaches us...wc is a concept system with a core syllabus of set movements that teaches us to apply our body structure in the correct way using whatever tools work......so wc is real fighting, chi sau, kicking, lap sau, gan da, clinch, chokes...everything from something....

we will have footage of the pro fights soon

best

aaron

[sihing]

we do use a curved punch..a whipping punch...there are many more angles to use than just straight...and if the gap to hit needs a circular arc then use it...but the elbow is always down and linked to the hip...as the form teaches us...wc is a concept system with a core syllabus of set movements that teaches us to apply our body structure in the correct way using whatever tools work......so wc is real fighting, chi sau, kicking, lap sau, gan da, clinch, chokes...everything from something....

we will have footage of the pro fights soon

best

aaron

Hi Aaron, and congrats to you..

I agree with the bolded phrase. WC is a conceptually based art, not a technique based art form in application. Which to me means, that you do what you have to do with what you have learned and absorbed. Just because there are no present pak sau, fok sau, bong sau, or whatever sau's as seen in the "Classically Trained" sense, does not mean it is not there in application. Forms, drills and such done in predetermined manner are done so to perfect form so that when you need it the most, in the heat of the battle, it comes out somewhat correct in structure (meaning defense is present in the offensive action), but sometimes not necessarily perfect form.

Those that look for those things in application (Looking like WC thinkin), IMO have not got the right sense or understanding of what WC/VT is all about. IMO, WC/VT is about getting the job done as fast as possible, not how good my tan sau is, or how stable my Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma is....

James

[k gledhill]

Why worry about MMA v VT ? Vt is a fighting attribute enhancing SYSTEM . Guys who fight on the ground can use VT as standup. I have students who do bjj and tell 'me' they wouldnt use a lot of it to steet fight ie the guard [old ufc fights with 20 minutes on your back !...in bars ive worked youd be kicked to death by 3-4 guys in 1 minute].... I've seen the framework of VT in fights being used by guys who dont 'know' VT but are on occasion 'doing' IT ....chuck v randy #3 KO the point of impact/angle/timing / balance on randys jaw pure vt[quite a few of my bar/street fights have ended in a similar manner ]
The effective, forward, relentless attacking seen by some fighters in ufc, is a trait we train for in VT ...a relentless aggressive forward attack instead of a 'hit & back off~ hit/hit & back off~ ' approach...we all see the strengths. Attack for 9 out of 10 seconds while the other guy defends for 9 ....etc... Showing a beginner to keep attacking me seems obvious to me, but has to be trained ...dont let a guy recover his counter-attacking ability and finish the fight as quickly as possible...in theory or at least change the guys idea of trying to hit you again
Evrytime a guy in the ufc raises his elbow/forearm to protect himself from a punch is an elbow up/bongsao..it may not be the same as we/you teach in your school of vt/wc/wt but it still works
I see more similarity in the ufc fighters than not to VT fighting , on a conceptual level too.
I feel the problems may lie in the perceptions of the VT students and anyone else looking for the 'VT training methods' in a fight..its not going to happen to often as most of the training methods we do...chisao...bong sao jutsao drills,etc.. these become redundant in freefighting ...a bong sao is so fast you cant even see it , a straight punch in vt is just a punch to the head , it doesnt have a sign saying "this is a VT punch" lol !

MMA, bruce lee was doing this with larry hartsel , dan inosanto way back ! there are books
'entering to traping to grappling ' dan inosanto....gracie just showed the uninformed, some have known this for a long time mma is fighting as one can expect it to be for real , vt is one aspect ....a canoe is no good on a highway and a porsche is no good on a river....whys an SUV so popular....its mma car.
I wonder how old the guys are or their IQ , who start these us v them threads ?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"IMO, WC/VT is about getting the job done as fast as possible, not how good my tan sau is, or how stable my Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma is...." (James Roller)


***YEAH, that's true...but if there are no vertical punches being used, and no lop, no pak, no tan, no wu, no garn, no gum, no bong, no jut, no huen, no po pai, no straight front kick landing with the heel and with the knee to the outside of the centerline, no lan, no palm strikes, no bil, etc...

then what is it?


..................................

To Alan, Aaron, and the rest of your crew:
Don't get me wrong. I saw the second large pic referred to in Aaron's last post and I understand the wing chun concepts in play at that moment. And I'm all for underhooks/sprawls against the shoot; the use of neck cranks, guillotines, etc. - when the moment calls for such things.

But let's be careful how we label things. That's my point. There was some wing chun being used in that fight. True enough. And a lot that was not being used. (That perhaps could have been used?) Maybe. Maybe not. But the fighter used an effective overall method of prevailing at those moments - and he won.

[sihing]

"IMO, WC/VT is about getting the job done as fast as possible, not how good my tan sau is, or how stable my Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma is...." (James Roller)


***YEAH, that's true...but if there are no vertical punches being used, and no lop, no pak, no tan, no wu, no garn, no gum, no bong, no jut, no huen, no po pai, no straight front kick landing with the heel and with the knee to the outside of the centerline, no lan, no palm strikes, no bil,...

then what is it?

Does anyone use all the tools, in their tools box on every occassion?.. Maybe those things are there, but we can't see them in the traditional sense? The Bong you may see in a fight may not be done in the traditional sense as you would see in the kwoon, but it may be there, or the pak or the fok concepts. Most of these things, I now see as concepts. Fok sau is a downward subduing energy, not a techique or shape with my fingers pointed back towards my body. Fok can be anywhere, and guess what, once it has done it's job it is gone, not to be used until needed. Economy of motion, besides meaning using less movement to get somewhere, also means to use what you need to get the job done. That may mean using only a little of what WC/VT concept teaches your body in a particular situation. Standing in Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma while 10'-15' away from your opponent, with Man/Wu sau out in guard is useful for what? Why do a posture like this when the time and space are incorrect? Using the tools correctly is also an art form in and of itself. Unfortunately most do not get that far in the system to utilize it for what it is for. They get stuck in a phase and think that phase is the be all end all, until you have someone show you there is so much more. That is exactly what happened to me, so I speak from experience here.

James