Baguazhang Dim-Mak

[Braden]

It seems to me like the main argument here is about semantics.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Gary and Sam seem to be defining "dim mak" as point-striking in general, while RAF and others limit the definition to 10-day delayed death strikes.

While you both could offer various arguments and evidence as to why your definition is correct, don't you think such a discussion would be pointless? Word definitions aren't particularly important; practice is.

What Gary and Sam are primarily talking about, teaching, and training in, are points used to stun. What they call this practice is irrelevant. Don't we all agree that such points exist?

Many of the points they're talking about can be found by any untrained individual simply sticking his thumb into them - regardless of time of day (eg. there are several points along the arm like this, that produce a wierd pain/numbing sensation). Some of the other points they discuss are things that are used in modern unarmed combat training that has no relation to "dim mak", because they work! (eg. the point in the armpit is a great example of this)

Furthermore, the image of a "point-fighter" dancing about at long range, desperately trying to poke some specific points to get spectacular effects does not describe what they are proposing.

Methods they suggest are, for example: hammer left elbow down upon opponents forearm, slide your arm up along his to strike a point in face or neck.

While they might be aiming to "hit ST7 to drain chi and stun, rub meridian in opposition to flow to cause sickness, then strike CO9 for a knockout" (or whatever, I don't know the names of my points ;) ), at the very least what they'll be doing is an excellent limb destruction flowing into a closing movement which utilizes sticking, controlling, and listening energies flowing into a powerful strike to the face or throat. Regardless of how successful their point-striking is, they're still doing something martially sound. In other words, their point-striking doesn't exist in a vacuum, but is an overlay upon basic martial efficiency.

We might not all agree with their methods, or think they're the most appropriate. I certainly don't - my interests lie elsewhere. But I do not think the derision expressed here is appropriate either; and I think the primary source of this negativity is a misunderstanding of their methods.

[gazza99]

Thanks Braden,
you are absoulutely right, its all a matter of perspective!! We should spend more time trying to understand someone elses definition before attempting to disprove it!
Kind regards,
Gary

[Water Dragon]

"Regardless of how successful their point-striking is, they're still doing something martially sound. In other words, their point-striking doesn't exist in a vacuum, but is an overlay upon basic martial efficiency."

This is the first time I have noticed this mentioned in this topic. OVERLAY being the key point: STRUCTURE/POWER/TECHNIQUE The power must be there first, among many other things. Advanced skills are advanced for a reason. The basics need to be mastered first.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[RAF]

Braden:

I really think we are at somewhat of an impasse. I think that Jerry Alan Johnson's text and descriptions mirror pretty close to what I, the count and a few others have learned. Some strikes require nothing regarding time of day etc.. But accordingly, Dian Xue requires an understanding of the peaks and lows of blood flow (which is intertwined with qi).

It seems that others do not follow this system and I am not so closed minded as to believe that there are many ways to "skin a cat". But clearly there are some systems, grounded in TCM, that require knowledge of seasons, organs, timing of blood flow etc.. It seems in an earlier post that others consider this wrong. Johnson is as credentialed as anyone I know regarding TCM so ultimately my credentials are better than your credentials also deadends in an impasse.

So what more can be said? I am sure that each respective party will continue to practice their system and I am certain that both parties will continue to knockout people, where need be of course. Whether its the dian xue, death touch, dim mak etc., it really doesn't matter as long as the job gets done (assuming it needs to be done).

So the impasse is reached. I hope there are no hard feelings and that if you do possess the so-called death touch, I also hope you never have to use it. Prison is not a good place to be. One of the best martial artists I knew landed in prison and was found dead in a maximum lockup cell. Some say the guards hung him because he was teaching MA to other inmates during his previous time. The guy fought in the underground circuit and was quite successful. Now, he is dead and leaves a beautiful wife and kids behind. All this talk about death touches etc., in practice, might be tragic for many. The old adage live by the sword die by the sword has a lot of wisdom for martial arts practitioners. Dying in prison or in a street fight over ego is not a good thing

[Leimeng]

For semantic purposes I shall use Dim Hsue instead of Dim Mak.
I have no question in my mind that Dim Hsue for killing or debilitating an opponent exists. I further think that it can be quite effective in the right place.
I question the logic of teaching it to everyone at an early phase in their training. While I understand that an intelligent person with a limited martial arts background could pick up a quality accupuncture book and learn the points to use. A person could also go to school for accupuncture and do some simple addition and come up with what would work for "dim hsue."
I found that if a person has a legitimate teacher with authentic knowledge, and they work hard, they will be able to take care of themselves very quickly. A year to three of good hard hsing-i or baguachuan or taichichuan will really definitely develop quality self defense skills providing a person works very hard. (A big problem now-a-days is people are too lazy to do the work necessary to become really good.)
A person who learns fajing and dim hsue without having a good inate understanding of their own energy; without having sufficient energy built up in their body; without having proper alignment of the spinal column; and without a proper mindset, WILL develop problems in their own body over time. They WILL develop energy problems, spinal and musculo-skeletal structure problems that can be very detrimental in the long run. The same goes with studying Iron Palm.
That is ONE of the reasons other training takes place first traditionally in most systems.
If a person is learning legitimate TaiChi or Bagua or HsingYi, and is studying it correctly and working hard at it, they will have no need of using dim mak of the severe type to defend themselves after a year to three. The only time a person needs it really is if they are fighting someone of such superiour skill that it helps balance out things. Or if you work for "them."
The key is hard work!!! (Ouch, there is that word again...)
:)
--Gary: What AFSC are you? What Squadron are you in? Where have you been besides Tinker?


Peace,

yi beng, kan xue

[maoshan]

I agree with you 100% Sin Loi!
The foundation must be strong, and that only comes with time.

Peace
Maoshan :cool:

[Sam Wiley]

From what I understand, certain points affect the heart rate. So if we have to strike a point at a certain time ("high or low tide", as in the above example), then we must first know which state the body is in...or must we?

Let me explain. The body has a cycle changing from yin to yang to yin again, etc. And within each major part of this cycle, there is a smaller cycle, and within that one there is a smaller cycle, etc, and on and on.

Now, if hitting a certain point can affect this cycle to a small degree, then why not use them in conjunction with the points which must be struck when the body is in a certain state if these points change the body's cycle to that necessary state?

How about some examples? Lung 8 and Heart 5 on the wrist are said to set up St9 for the strike. There are applications in the old Yang style that involve taking the wrist, jerking and cranking it, and then coming forward into the throat with Press/Squeeze. My own personal take on this is that these points on the wrist momentarily force a change in the cycle of the body, putting the heart in the desired state for the strike. In other words, these points put the body in the necessary ("high or low tide") state for the strike.

Other points that are said to work well with St9 are Neiguan and Heart 3. There are applications from the old Yang style that involve striking the arm at Neiguan with one hand and at Heart 3 with the other, and then coming forward with Chee into the throat.

Both of these sets of techniques are from Grasping the Sparrow's Tail, which is said to be the foundation of Taiji. In fact, both of them use Rollback and Chee. I am reminded of a line from one of Taiji's classic manuals, "Rollback without Chee is a waste of Rollback; Chee without Rollback is a foolish risk." Besides the obvious, might we also not interpret this line in light of point striking techniques? In other words, we might get from it that using set-up points without striking the target is a waste of energy, and that striking the point without a set-up might not necessarily get the job done.

Also in the classics, it is said, "Split strikes out with horizontal force like a surprise shot; avoid the central gate and take the spiral path. With a single hand sweeping the opponent's neck, I am like a speeding horse destroying all in its path." So if we use P'eng to defend against a punch, and then use Rollback, we can then use Split as he comes forward, to spiral his arm up into his body. We could throw him, having pressured his elbow to the point of almost breaking it, or simply break it, but we can also go on and damage him much more, by jerking the wrist again with one hand as our other strikes into St9. From here, all we have to do is step around behind, tear the head back with one hand as the other jerks his wrist again, pulling his arm across our chest and breaking it, and then kick to the back of knee at Kidney 10 while we tear the head ****her back, using Split again.

Or we could use P'eng to defend against a punch as we strike with the other hand to the temple, then step around behind quickly, and thrust one hand across his throat, knocking sideways against the Adam's Apple, as the other jerks his wrist so his arm breaks across our chest, and then kick to the back of the Knee at Kidney 10 as we tear back on his head, again using Split.

For those here who study Chiang Jung Chiao's Bagua, you might want to use Jade Lady Throws Fan to block a low punch, striking Heart 5 and Lung 8, and then rebound into Stomach 9 with the top hand and into Liver 14 with the other. If done with fa-jing, the hands will jerk the arm as they close onto it because of the turning action of the waist, using Bagua's Leading ability (sort of like Rollback), and then as he comes forward, your hands slam into St9 and Liv14.

Or, also for the Bagua stylists, you may want to use Flower Hides Beneath Leaf to defend against a punch and step around to his closed side, using the top hand to jerk the wrist as you step around and the lower hand to strike to the kidneys. As you come around fully, your shoulder locks his elbow into place, you crank his wrist, and spiral his arm up into his body, using the knee closest to him to pop into the back of his knee at Kidney 10, and the lower hand's forearm to scrape up his arm into his armpit to Heart 1. If done hard or with fa-jing, the hand will continue up into his neck or jaw as you throw him. Or you could simply bring the "lower" hand over the top of his arm as you turn and step, striking him in the jaw, then crank the wrist etc like before, and come around with the hand coming directly into the throat instead of the armpit.

If these points set up the body for the strike as we are told, then we do not necessarily have to know which state an attacker is in, as we can put him there for a moment and execute our strike. I think that is more important than knowing a bunch of theory, which won't help you with application until after you have learned usage. Anyway, the key is, as others have said, in laying the knowledge over what you have learned, not just reading about some points and trying to poke them real hard. If you can relate the point striking to what you already have learned, and then can use it to augment what you already have, then you are doing well.

BTW, were any of the applications above unclear? They all come directly from the forms.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

[RAF]

Sin Loi

Well said. 100% agreement.

[gazza99]

I agree with alot of what you said, however you are forgetting some history. Chang-seng-feng (think thats how its spelled) invented dim-mak first, later the strikes where put into forms to hide them from others, later these forms became an art called Taijiquan! But the dim-mak applications where not taught to many, so it was handed down without the proper apps. Later some even took out the Fa-jing, so old and sick people to reap the health benifts. But your right if you can use fa-jing, and you can use energy correctly then you can aviod using the dim-mak (pardon my cantonese dialect) altogether. But why? You do not have to kill the person, simply use a dim-mak strike to knock someone out. This very effective for law enforcment people because they do not have to leave any marks! But you do have to have a good base before learning to use such strikes effectively. If you want to know the proper applicaions for your taiji form, email Sam, as he and I study and teach the same systems. He likes to discuss forms more than I, thanks Sam.
I am in the 963 Airborne Air Control Squadron at tinker ( my only base) as I fly on the AWACS, we have few bases in the world. My AFSC is 1A551, are you in the AF as well...same questions to you?
Kind regards,
Gary

[Kevin Wallbridge]

(If I were smart i probably wouldn't wade into this... oh well)

Just as point of language dian-xue literally means to "dot" the "cavity." Xue here is often misunderstood as blood, a homynym, but refers to a cave or acupoint, not just blood vessels. Death is not part of the equation, in fact there is a method for Tuina massage called Dain-Xue-Fa, or cavity pressing method.

The idea that ancillary training is time wasted presumes that more is better when in comes to primary training, and long widom has proved this false. Its called over-training, something martial artists are notorious for. To get the most benefit from your training you need to break it up with other activities that allow time for assimilation and integration by the central nervous system and the body's contractile tissue.

How many times have you had a breakthrough, then trained like mad in boyish (or girlish) delight? Did you know that your brain would rather step back the activity/work level for two hours then review the material again? This way the new information sinks the deepest into the body-memory and can be recalled more completely at a later date. The idea that this training is wasted goes hand in hand the argument that time spent on theory is wasted, but thats for another contentious thread.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai