The 8 Basic Movements

[taijiquan_student]

Alright everyone, let's get this forum going a little more. It's been kinda slow lately.

How do you like to apply the 8 basic movements of wardoff, rollback, press, push, pulldown, split, elbow, and shoulder? I'm talking about an unrehearsed fullcontact situation. Do you have any favorite techniques that you use that utilizes one (or more) of the eight basic movements? Tell us about it. Don't just say "I like _____" or "pengjin is in everything".

[Kumkuat]

well i guess any forward pressure can be ji (like a straight punch or push). Any upward pressure can be peng (like an uppercut or lift). Any downward pressure would be an (like throw down, downard qinna pressure). Any pressure backwards would be lu (like pulling someone towards you.) Any two opposite forces would be cai (like using two forces up and down to pull someone down). Any immedate change in direction would be lieh. (Like throwing someone left then suddenly throwing the right (shaking)). Doing any of the four direction with the elbow is zhou and doing type of bump with the body would be kao. Oh yeah, pengjin is everything. And I like an.

[ShaolinWood]

Ha ha, No seriously,
For instance use ghong kua(2nd level of push hands- using both arms to scoop apponents 2 arms from outside, via circular movement outward) while stepping in using kao(Shoulder strike) when opponent stumbles(hopefully fly) backwards use pluck by grabbing a leg while your in there. This causes him to flip over. A very uncomfortable posture...
Have fun practicing on your friends!
No seriously...

[Vapour]

I'm sorry but my answer have to be that I have to utilise all 8 movements to execute any technique.

I do judo and it is my view that to execute a successful throw (ippon) you have to at least use about 4 basic movements.

To me, 8 movements are not really techniques so your question is not appropriate.

And in judo, you need to be relaxed and have peng in everything.

[bodhitree]

When the opponet attacks Roll Back When the opponent retreats Push.

[taijiquan_student]

Vapour, can you give more detail? Give an example of using 4 of the 8 basic movements at the same time. I'm guessing peng will be one of them, but how about the others? In what situation do you use this?
I realize that the 8 basic movements are not just "techniques" but are different jins, but that doesn't mean you can't say when and how you apply them.

Bodhitree--how do you apply rollback when the other person advances? Push is a little bit more self-explanatory, but maybe roll-back you could give us a specific way you use it?

Kumkuat--I can't see ji (press) being a punch or a push. I've always learned press as a short energy compression-movement, using the two hands pressed together or one hand against the forearm. How are you seeing ji as a push or a strike?

Thanks for the replies everyone. Keep 'em coming!

[Vapour]

I'm relative newbie in judo so if there are anyone out there with mroe experience, correct me if I get anything wrong.

In competition judo there are two set of stand up kata/technique. Nage no kata (Kata of throw) and Go no Sen no kata (Kata of counter). You always being introduced to nage no kata first. All Nage no kata follow the same sequence, kuzushi (break), tukuri (set) and kake(throw). Basic idea is that one break opponent structure/balance then set it up for whatever judo throw you want to do then execute.

When I tried judo first time, no matter how much I tried, I couldn't throw with thecnique I learned until I figured out that kuzushi is the 75-90% of judo throw.

In standard kata performance, both uke and tori are holding each other, one hand grabbing arm sleeve and the other grabbing neck sleeve. When one go for kuzushi, you either pull your opponent into you or push yourself into opponent. At the same time, you basically split your opponent's arms to open up his chest. And this pull/push and split is done simultaneously. Plus there are slight upward and downward movement so you make your opponent to float backward or bend down forward momentarily. If you can do that you really own him. And it's not easy because in competition, both party is trying to do the same so you really need to have peng all the time. That is why lot of judo looks like sumo wrestling and suddenly, bang, the match is over.

Once you done kuzushi, you move in to attach side of your body to your opponent. The most important one is hip but also if you are making him to float, you could put your arm to opponent's arm pit or simply grab the sleeve and twist it up. The feeling is very similar to grinding in my elbow up. Lastly I turn and throw is complete. Conversely, in taiotoshi, you sort of move downward into front of the opponent and turn so it more like take down and turning throw combined.

When I started it. I attach my hip to opponent and try to uproot him using my back muscle. Boy boy boy was I wrong, not to mention that I splain my back muscle few times doing that.

So let me think, I and my opponent is doing peng all the time to keep each other away. Then I could pull in which is sort of take down because main idea is to make him bend over and cause loss of balance. Or I push in which is like shoulder because I'm trying to attach my hip and shoulder to the centre line of my opponent. Either way, I'm doing split to open him up then I turn (roll back?) to compete my throw.

To be honest, I don't know pushing kuzushi in is a push or a shoulder. In osotogari, it is more of push with follow step. In seoinage it is shoulder. Also in tukuri, I may be doing elbow or may be it's squeeze. I just figured that I'm doing at least 4 of 8 movements to execute a throw.

In nage no kata, one force technique to opponent. In "Go no Sen no kata" you let your opponent attack and follow his throw. So if he push, you follow so he ge pulled in. If he pull, you follow so I could push myself into him. When he split, you follow so you split him. Idea is to try to maintain your structure as much as possible while following opponent's throw, then somehow, opponent will loose his structure and set himself up for a throw.

I am certainly not an expert but I think inintially your understand each 8 movements as a technique. Then as you get more experience, you tend to see that a technique (in my case judo throw) contain numbers of 8 movement in it as a sequence. Eventually, I think whatever technique you are doing, you can switch into other technique because at every moment, you have 8 movement inside. It is written in classic that, in the end, 8 movements is more of energy/feel than technique. So peng could become lu, lu could become shoulder and so on. Obviously, that stage is totally beyond me at the moment

Well that's my 2 cent. Hope it helped.

[Subitai]

1st off, I don't buy into Peng is in everything 100% of the time.

Nothing is 100%.

Although I consider myself a more combat TC practicioner, I am definatley of a more passive position. I recently interacted with a good Chen style player, his sifu is very famous...right up there w/ the level of the four diamonds or better. ( I don't have his name right now)

In push hands I noticed one big difference, he used Peng in combination w/ Lu defensively. Where as I always used Lu, to lead him into nothingness. He was surprised that combatively I was able to be so soft in defense. (but soft doesn't exist w/o hard) We quickly agreed that those are two different schools of thought.

I concentrate 80% of my time on Lu, in combination with sticking, listening, controlling and explosiveness. But as quoted by Chen Xiao Wang himself to a friend of mine. Of the 8 basic energies only Lu is purely defensive, the others all containing both offense and deffensive uses. I don't find it that complicated...don't let your man find your center, allow him (notice i didn't say lead) to go into nothingness. Like the saying, fighting an empty coat.

Of course, the precursor to all of this as a TC player is establishing a stick point. It makes me laugh when people think that they can bridge to a boxers jab. You can, if you're really good. But hippie TC people that say, that TC is not for fighting could never do this.

If I can Lu, I can do anything. Just what "Vapour" the judo guy is eluding to. Only I feel, by saying "break" (and as a former brown belt in Judo) I am familiar with what he means by this, it is alittle more obvious and not so hidden. He even eludes to this, by saying both guys sense it. Where as if you are really good at Lu, your movements are "Masked" behind and in conjuction with your opponants intent/energy. Done really well, by the time they feel it, it's too late.

So many people skip ahead to Fa jing and it's explosiveness, but I say w/o LU it is not useable at a high level. For that matter, by a smaller person VS. a much bigger person. That is the real measure of skill in my opinion. Because lets face it, size matters.

It's ok if people don't agree right? That's cool, that's what this place is for.

"O"

[Kumkuat]

i meant it as a stright forward force. But i'm pretty much mistaken I think because strikes usually end up in an.

[ShaolinWood]

Yup, a strike would be An, just termanology wise.
Ji is more of a follow and redirect according to me...

I agree with Subitai:"It's ok if people don't agree right? That's cool, that's what this place is for." These forums are exactly for that, so anyone can post an oppinion(Now this is not Bad-mouthing, there's a difference) and they can get a response from someone who knows about the topic, then we can all learn. People shouldn't get mad when someone post an oppinion that's not entirely right, just respond to the arguement and give the guy some background info, some proof backing why you disagree.

it's a bit sad when people just reply wit stuff like: "You don't know what you'r talking about" or "that's bullshyt", know w'mean?

Sorry this is a bit off the topic but I was just thinking about it reading some of the threads on the site.

There are some really cool books on The 8 energies, check out:
Chen Style Taijiquan
by Feng Zhiquang, Chen Xiaowang

Chen Style: The Source of Taijiquan
by Davidine Siaw-Voon Sim, David Gaffney

Enjoy!