Baji in MMA competition in AK

[BaldMonk]

Hey fellas,

I think this is the place for this thread because in the past this is where the Baji discussions have taken place. There was a big MMA competition that happens every year up here. I almost went. In the past it has been entertaining but it's mostly karate guys with a couple of decent groundfighters thrown in the mix. There was a Wing Chun guy up here that has done well in the past.

Anyway I was gonna go but I didn't. Figured it would be the same as before, even though I had heard some guys were comming up from California. Figured they would be BJJ players.

Boy was I wrong...

I found out today that four student of Adam Hsu came up and wiped the floor with everybody. They used Baji and all of their fights were over in 30 seconds or less. Suffice to say they won the competition.

I'm looking for more info on these guys. Did anybody see the competition or hear about it? Or maybe you've heard about them competing in some other competiton.

Please let me know if you've got any knowledge of these guys.

[omarthefish]

BBRRRREEEEEAAAAAARRRGGGHHHH !! ! ! ! BAJI!!! RULES !

[Asia]

This is quite sad.

We who weild the eight extremes take an unfair advantage over those who do not know our power.

BAJI! is for world conquest. These students must be punished for taking advantage of lowly mortals!!!

(Translation: BAJI KICKS ASS!!!)

[baji-fist]

Whoever these students are, congrats to them and for representinig the baji style!

[TzuChan]

How does baiji relate to taiji ? i read bout it, feel free to inform me, or not to inform me

[count]

Much props in order. It's great to hear about our cousins successes, but I must point out two things. It's not what style you train but how you train it and apply it. Also it seems that Adam Hsu has been exclusively in Taiwan for more than a couple of years now.

Asia, it's great to hear from you. I hope your staying in Germany for now.

TzuChan, here is a thread just a few down which discusses Taiji vs baji.

[phil]

to the bald-headed one, and baji-fist, whassup from Boston! Where's the Golden Child? Omar, just wanted to say that I enjoyed some of the convos we've had over email in the past.

I'd like to broaden this topic a little more (possibly getting some input from RAF, Omar, Daredevil and others). Since Baldmonk touched upon the topic of using baji in an actual, spontaneous situation, to those out there studying this art, how are your teachers preparing you to use baji in a fight? I've read some very good articles on baji conditioning training (thanks RAF, Count, and others) but what about fight training? What does baji use to train sensitivity, timing, proper angles? For example, I've seen taji use tuishou and praying mantis use sticky hands and a variety of 2 man drills. There has to be more to BAJI! than just get in there and blast. Or not? With all due respect to the awesome power of BAJI! of course.

thanks and take care all,
Phil

[Daredevil]

Yes, there's more to Baji than its mode of power generation. The Baji approach to combat is more than just a philosophy of force and feels (from my experience) rather unique to the system. A direct approach is definately the way to go, but it is a live and constantly changing one and not just a predictable exchange of blows. The flow from technique to technique is very important, executed with viciousness and utilizing the Baji method of generating power. Of course, good principles are good principles and will also be similar across the various styles.

Various two man drills exist to train sensitivity, timing and proper angles. In addition to the various techniques being trained with application in mind with a partner as is typical, the Baji Big Form can be split in two and trained as a two man form. A similar function is served by the Six Elbow Endings drill, which focuses on training flowing attacks/defenses concentrating on elbow use. The Liu Da Kai (Six Big Openings) are a set of drills for opening the opponent's door, which is crucial for combat application.

That's an answer based on the level of practise I'm currently engaged in and from what I've seen in the past. There's more drills to come for sure and also a development towards free sparring and competition.

There's a few quick thoughts in the subject.

[RAF]

Is it possible that these students were with Ted Mancuso?

Ted Mancuso is like the Western version of Adam Hsu. He really knows the depth of baji and other systems. Ted also has been trained in many other systems and probably knows a great deal about ring fighting..

Sorry to all my baji brothers, but I would be cautious putting baji on such a high pedestal. One tilt and the fall can be very great and devastating.

Kudos to the individuals who undertook the training (in any system) and I still believe that the individual makes the systems. Many are called but few are chosen.

There is a way to train with ting jing but I can't remember what was said. Many of the the so-called internal exercises of pigua bring great sensitivity to the hand.

Su Yu Zhang's tapes are worth watching for applications and one of his students has done well with regard to muay thai (however, it might be more of a mantis thing for that fighter, I don't know).

I know that the kao training is very similiear Liuhe Xing Yi (at least what I saw George Xu do in a performance in San Francisco in the 1980s). You also can train against posts (providing there is give in the posts. When you dig the holes, you pack them with stone, bottom and sides and very little dirt.

Good luck in your training.

[phil]

"Su Yu Zhang's tapes are worth watching for applications and one of his students has done well with regard to muay thai (however, it might be more of a mantis thing for that fighter, I don't know)."

Right! I've seen some of his tapes and even as he blasts his open out of range, it is often along the path of least resistance, for ex at a 45 or 90 degree angle to the opponent. My point is are there drills specific to baji that train for this? It can't be as simple as , now I have the power, HULK SMASH!! I guess similar to what DD was saying about the Six Elbows Ending drill (definitely sounds intriguing, DD). My concern is that yes, baji builds a lot of power from the conditioning training, but even the student with a lot of power can get whupped if they don't train in drills that let them ingrain the fighting strategy of their particular style. So while a lot of focus has been on the power generating methods of baji, what about the fighting methods, the strategies?

Isn't the post training more of a conditioning thing or is conditioning and fighting strategy/training methodology intimately linked in baji?

thanks again all,
Phil

[RAF]

Phil:

I think your best answer is to go to a school that is teaching baji as a regular part of their curriculum. The issues that you raise are not, in my experience, very important in the first 3-4 years of learning baji (I know, I am really going to catch Heill for that one). Before baji was only available to formal students (disciples) and you had to follow my teacher for 6 to 8 years before you even saw baji (bagua is even more closed). During those years, our school, if you could call it that, was never more than 15-20 students and it was not really publicly available.

I can only speak from the experience of my teacher and his way. Initially, everyone started in 8 step praying mantis with many two man drills and even a praying mantis pushing hands. Look at some of the stuff Tainan Mantis has on video. For fighting in a ring, students train differently.

Other schools start students off in long fist.

It would be a great error to underestimate the necessary conditioning for the effectiveness in baji. You also spend a lot of time punching but 99% of this must be done on your own. There really aren't that many baji fighters around that I am aware of. Structuring baji training is not done in class. Class is for learning how to do it.

Some of the young guys in baji that I know are also learning some ground fighting techniques, wrestling, judo and even some boxing from a former golden gloves champion--this is set for the ring. One of our students, Joe Bryne is just getting the program started and he has a lot of ring experience and was a high school wrestling champ. He and my teacher will be exploring baji along these lines.

Let me change the old saying:

Many come calling but few take it on.

Many of us got started far too late in baji to really reap its complete fighting benefits (age is a reality). We will see in the next 10 years how well baji does as it becomes more public and available. Its in the hands of a new generation of young practitioners and I wish them well.


Here is the life cycle of training that GM Liu wrote:

"There are four stages of learning marital arts which are based on the Si Xiang. The first stage is childhood in which the student must learn the basics and train continuously with rest. This requires instruction from a good teacher and will yield a solid foundation in the art. The second stage is the teenage years when one should practice the basics until they become natural. The third stage is during the adult years when one should take what one has learned and develop a higher level of skill by a careful investigation of the arts. Thereby the knowledge and skill attained at this stage will yield greater growth and wisdom. The fourth stage is in the years of old age. This is the time to nurture one's skills. It is at this time that the martial arts practitioner will preserve and protect the level of skill developed in all of the previous stages. "

"Certainty, Calmness, Peacefulness, and Smoothness are the Basic Ways of Nurturing the Heart and Temperament.

These four principles must always be applied in the practice of the martial arts. Certainty or solidity is essential in order to maintain proper postures. Peacefulness or tranquility must be maintained when going through movements (a form) and executing a technique. Carefulness, in the form of calmness, must be maintained so as to avoid injury. Smoothness must be used in transition moves in order to defeat your opponent. "
The Late Liu Yun Qiao



Good luck in your training.

[Daredevil]

Hmm. Well, I think in most well taught arts you're going to find each training method/technique/drill teaching you a number of different things. So, yes -- one thing may be conditioning, but done a bit differently the same thing can be teaching you a principle more relevant to strategy.

For an example, you can train the small form with a couple of different approaches : you can train your stance work (stability, connection, etc), you can concentrate on getting the power out or you can do it in a more lively, flexible manner training your footwork. The basic drills (like the single punch) also have this component. It's not just punching, it's also training your footwork.

So these things build on each other, are interwoven and further learning is built on the various factors learned before. I guess that's like most things in life and kungfu, though. The important thing -- I feel -- is keeping an open mind and considering every aspect of what is shown as a potential lesson to be understood.

Similarly bits of strategy and approach to combat are learned everywhere as the art is slowly being understood better.

I'd mention the role of a good teacher with personal experience in applying his skill under stress in teaching strategy as critical to learning these aspects, of course. I think that is also a factor that pretty much transcends stylistic considerations.

So, while there isn't a system of Push Hands (or an immediate cousin) in Baji per se, almost everything thought teaches also more than just body usage.

To sum it up, I'd paraphrase you: "strategy/training methodology intimately linked". That's pretty much how I have seen things so far, but again (as a disclaimer) I'm pretty sure my teacher will have specific exercises and more to say regarding this matter when he feels it is appropiate to move more away from working on our technical skills into "higher" realms of ability.

[Daredevil]

And what RAF said. I'm in pretty much full agreement. Good stuff.

[TzuChan]

thanks count

[BaldMonk]

Boston Baji check your PM's