Ground Mantis?

[Hephaestus]

Greetings! While not a Tanglang practitioner myself, I do have an interest in the CCK TJPM system, something I may look into at a later stage in my training.

I've come across something interesting, namely a form known as "Dei Tong Long", which I'd assume would be Di Tang Lang in Mandarin pinyin.

Does anyone have any information on this form? I know there is at least one poster on this board who has experience with it. Is it a "groundfighting" form by our interpretation of the term, like the movements contained within BJJ and western ground wrestling, or is it more similar to the Di Tang ground-rolling-striking forms I've seen many times before?

I know that there are is "groundfighting" in kung fu, though the systems that contain such forms are few and far between, and the forms themselves rarer still.

So, hopefully someone can help out a poor n00b and enlighten me.

Thanks

[TaichiMantis]

I'm sure it's not stay on the ground type of fighting like bjj and the like. Some of our forms have takedowns and striking someone while they are down. Lao Hop Jung - Six Harmonies Palm, has a scissors take down and a full circle sweep take down, along with a flip up from the ground.

[mantis108]

Greetings Hephaestus,

Greetings! While not a Tanglang practitioner myself, I do have an interest in the CCK TJPM system, something I may look into at a later stage in my training.

I see that you are in the GVRD area. I believe that Sifu Jack Wong has a branch in that area. I would encourage you to check his classes out.

I've come across something interesting, namely a form known as "Dei Tong Long", which I'd assume would be Di Tang Lang in Mandarin pinyin.

Yes, Dei Tong Long is Cantonese and Di Tang Lang is Mandarin.

Does anyone have any information on this form? I know there is at least one poster on this board who has experience with it. Is it a "groundfighting" form by our interpretation of the term, like the movements contained within BJJ and western ground wrestling, or is it more similar to the Di Tang ground-rolling-striking forms I've seen many times before?

By your definition, I would think that I am the only one in the system that teaches it with regard to BJJ and MMA esque way. This means that I emphasize on positional play for submission (can go ground and pound also) using the moves in the form as entries or counters. I believe most people I know of would do the ground-rolling-striking apps. The form itself is somewhat similar to the Di Tang stuff which is typical of Chinese "ground fighting" techs.

I know that there are is "groundfighting" in kung fu, though the systems that contain such forms are few and far between, and the forms themselves rarer still. So, hopefully someone can help out a poor n00b and enlighten me.

I think you are right there are very few people in Kung Fu interested in these stuff. If you are interested, I can give you my take on groundfighting and its training in Kung Fu.

Regards

Mantis108

[Hephaestus]

Thank for the replies.

I am familiar with Jack Wong's school website, which is the first place I saw mention of the form in question. I believe he teaches in the Surrey area. I intend on having a visit over there some time in the future.

I'd be more than happy to hear your thoughts on the matter of groundfighting and kung fu, mantis108.
Probably the only source of information I have for such things is the book Chin Na in Ground Fighting (Al Arsenault), a volume I haven't been able to make a whole lot of sense of with my relative lack of knowledge when it comes to groundfighting in general.

[mantis108]

Well, the truth is there is really no subsititue for learning ground figthing other than actually go to grappling arts (ie BJJ, Sambo, etc..) that teach and train it. Kung Fu is trailing behind in this area of combat. Chin Na and ground grappling are not necessarily the same animal although them seemed to share certain similar principles. So we must be able to discern that and bear that in mind. Having said that it is not impossible to learn a good ground game from a progressive Kung Fu style and/or stylist.

To effectively learn the ground game there are a few things to look at:

1) Breakfall and rolling

These are most basic skills in learning takedown and in making the practice relatively safe even in pressure testing (all phases of sparring). Tainan Mantis (Kevin Brazier) showed me his routine for this which I think is every effective in training the break fall. I believe a Judo type of breakfalling and rolling program is most effecient. BTW rolling is an important skill to develop good sweeps for the ground game. The next step on the break fall is the ground mobility drills, which are to deal with the three ground games.

Top game (when you mount or knee riding/side control someone)
Bottom game (When you being mounted or knee ridden/side controlled by someone)
Guard game (Opponent between your legs but has no control of your hip)

All these can be included in the break full training as warm ups.

2) Throws and takedown

Quan (fighting form) such as the Di Tanglang has plenty of these. Jia (conditioning form) such as the 18 Luohan Gong can train the mechanics of throws and takedowns really well. All are excellent to enhance these aspects of fighting.

Kao Da is also a very important training category to develop some serious skills and countering skills for throws and takedown.

We should also learn sweeps from the three ground positions as the reversal. Once you are being thrown or taken down, how do you quickly turn the disadvantage around? So we must learn that.

3) Chin Na and Ground Grappling Techniques

Mantis has plenty of Chin Na to offered as stand up grappling which leads to either unbalance (takedown) or control of the opponent. It is important to note that some awkward stand up techniques might very well be sound concepts or principles on the ground. So study them carefully so that you can translate them into your ground game. Also gravity goes hand in hand with the ground. If you can make use of this, you will come out on top (pun intended) of your ground game.

Ground grappling techniques offer great advantages in using the ground and gravity to your advantage. It also allows the exponent (smaller physique especially) to use all the limbs and the torso against an isolated limb or exposed neck of opponent (5 against 1 odds). Therefore, it is wise to build a good ground game. In addition, they have very effective lapels and t-shirt chokes developed for handling different situations. Kung Fu has been lacking in this area.

There is nothing wrong with one move wonder in Kung Fu. Remember Keeping It Simple Stupid. Fancy moves in an unwarranted situation is just the thing that get you choked or tap out (even killed on the street).

4) Escape

This is most obvious for a striking style such as mantis. We don't really wanted to be there in the first place. Most people look to techniques on this one (ie elbow escape (ebi), bridge (upa), etc..) . If you rely on techniques to get you out you are too slow. It helps but an experienced grappler knows that quick reflects and response time is more crucial to the great escape. So drill takedown and get up as often and as quickly as you can. Simple anti grappling measures such as better clinch game, sprawling, and ground sweeps (including ground kicking) are also a must. Believe it or not you can find these in the Ground Mantis.

5) Finishing moves

We have to understand that at the ground range there are only so many ways a body can move because of the present of the ground. So in a way there are not so many choices of style specific techniques as finishing hold. There is nothing wrong to use high percentage finishing moves such as rear naked choke, straight armbar, triangle, etc. Personally I wouldn't worry about "looking" like mantis finishing hold here. But work more so towards approaching the hold through the principles and concepts of Mantis (ie 12 keywords). Do pay attention of positional play.

Position is everything in ground game. You have be able to understand hierarchy of position, control of position and attack from the position. Finishing moves don't come at the expense of position. This is of utmost importance.

6) Avoiding going to the ground with a grappler.

Personally, I don't find this mentality healthy because that means not facing a potential problem. I think a better approach is to understand balance through good stances and foundations even on the ground. Good balance, mobility and breathing should allow you to survive standing up or on the ground. Do not let fear to persuade you otherwise. Fear stems from the unknown. If you learn it you will take away the unknown; hence, no fear. Also, if you panic on the ground the fight is over. So be mindful of that.

You don't have to grapple a grappler if you know enough to stay on your feet. This has been the case in the UFC and other NHB events lately.

7) Climate training

The secret of success of the bench mark of ground grappling - BJJ - is that it is based on aliveness and pressure testing to integrate polish their techniques. There is no reason that Mantis can not adopt some of its methodology.

Learn, practice and drill and Learn, practice and drill. Develop drills from the forms and practice them over and over again with live partners. Not just doing the forms. That will translate into Kung Fu. I think we all are familiar with and understand this well. So I won't be long winded about this.

Hope this helps.

Warm regards

Mantis108

PS Glad that you are considering going to Jack's. Hope to hear your tryout with CCK TCPM in the near future.

[Hephaestus]

Thank you Mantis108 for your thoughts.

Having previously trained in the basics of more than one style of Hapkido, I can surely attest to the value of break-fall skills. In my personal experience, a little bit of falling practice goes a long way (perhaps because we do not already have a set programmed response for a fall?), and though I haven't practiced falling in some time (and never mastered my fall-and-rolls or my reflexes) what knowledge I have of it is still with me, and continues to save me from brain damage now and then, even outside of fighting. Several memories of slipping on ice or a slick surface come to mind.
What is your opinion on Korean/Japanese breakfalling (such as that of Hapkido/Aikido and Judo) compared to, say, the typical Shuai Jiao breakfall?

I must agree that in this day and age, kung fu practitioners need to be able to at least survive on the ground, even if only long enough to escape if it is not their preferred range.

I'll certainly let you know how my first experience(s) with Jack Wong's school and/or TJPM play out, though I must warn you not to hold your breath! While it'll undoubtedly occur, it may be some time.

[mantis108]

Hi Hephaestus,

What is your opinion on Korean/Japanese breakfalling (such as that of Hapkido/Aikido and Judo) compared to, say, the typical Shuai Jiao breakfall?

The truth is they are all good in their own context and they are all designed to keep the user safe with 2 major principles in mind.

1) tug your head tight and look at your belt and nothing but your belt.
2) never ever stop the fall (breaking) with your hand or elbow.

the rest of the details are more style preferences. So, there is no such thing as one is better than the other. They are all good.

My experience with Korean older style of TKD and Hapkido (?) is that it's somewhat similar to how I first learned breakfall in CCK TCPM. It has what I would decribe as a "decaying posture" (imagine dinosaur fossil). The body landed in a curved sideway position where the head would be cushioned by the laned out stretched arm's bicep. This is the head part of the dino bones. The landed leg would be tugged close to the but and the top land crossed over point in the same direction of the landed arm. This forms the dino tail part. The body would be curled which the back would look similar to the dino bones' belly part. I call this the decaying posture.

The rationale of this "old style" of breakfalling is to keep the head from ever exposed to dangerous landing situations and to keep the hip from smashing onto the hard service. The problem is that this somewhat offers your back to your opponent who has just thrown you. However, there's always silver lining in Kung Fu. You can (at least in theory) to get up with a tornado kick in this posture. In old mantis manuscript this is called ground wind extending. It's very explosive and physically demanding. As I am aging faster than I could imagine, I would need a softer way to do things which is why I favor the Judo way.

Judo on the other hand is what I would call "slumber party posture" (imagine hitting the mattress at night - a Godfather movie pun also ). This away your landing leg would be straight and away from your butt while your "top" leg would be tugged closer to your butt. This way your back is not as turned and give away. You can readily "shrimp" which is the mother of all bottom escapes. You are ready to rock and roll! Also Judo would roll as well. This way is relatively easier on your body; hence Ju (soft/fluid/flexible).

Aikido is a bit of a different animals. It advocates "listening" to your opponent's incoming enegy and roll with it rather than break falling which they do exsit but not their primary focus. It has a passive yet proactive paradox in its approach. Highly artful but not easy to understand without a good teacher and partner to work with. Also there are some differences in different styles of Aikido. There are "aggressive" style of Aikido out there as well. So it's a whole world of difference just that alone.

Shuai Jiao is very interesting. It has a "paratrooper posture" of breakfalling which some call it fetal position. If you are thrown, you are presumed dead or lost (in sport version) in Shuai Jiao. So that's pretty much in theory the end of the road for you. Now, I have seem some interesting counters of their thrown that look something like a butterfly kick which is amazing to watch. Anyway, high energy and high impact Shuai Jiao is awesome not to mention that it's will give you a good understanding of the clinch game in the Chinese way. So...

Hope this answer your question.

Warm regards

Mantis108