Why I will never try to choke or submit someone on the street.

[anerlich]

As long as you can keep your chin tucked you won't get choked out by an RNC.

What KF said, plus if your chin is tucked you can still get facelocked right into the ER if it's not sport jiu jitsu. Getting choked out might almost be preferable.

[Asia]

What KF said, plus if your chin is tucked you can still get facelocked right into the ER if it's not sport jiu jitsu. Getting choked out might almost be preferable.

Very true. You can easily switch to a face lock and dislocate a persons jaw, I've done this before.

And for those that think it takes longer than 10secs to be choked out I offer this:
Randy Couture choking out a hottie.
I have no idea WHY this girl volunteered for this but note it takes 10sec for here to be out and she is CALM. If she is struggling it can take less time for the choke to take effect.

Right. And most of these (well ALL of these) people don't have a knife and don't consider it a "fight to the death". If I feel someone has a choke locked in and there's really nothing I can do I'll tap rather than sit there and "go unconscious". But that's different from if I was on the street and thought there might be "no walking away from this one" AND if I had a knife. Really, think about it. I have to have a hand free to "tap" right? If I have that hand free and if I can get to my knife I can slice/stab just as easily as I can "tap".

I agree but thats not the point I was making the BS UWC was spewing. Trust me if I had a knife I am going for that as well because once I lose consciousness I could be done for. HOWEVER in a real fight, hell even in the ring, I am aware of what the person is doing becauce even if the choke is in there are still seconds for them to doing something and the wild survial instinct is going to kick in. When I've done this for real I had guys try all sorts of things to get out. Thats why I will do things like jerk them around and kick the back of the knee so the lose balance and have something else to think about along with choking. This is something that comes form experience and not just trying something for the first time in a real fight without sufficient practice.

Oh, and for the record, he're someone finishing a standing rear naked choke in UFC 45. I guess he must be a "McDojo" BJJ fighter huh?

Notice in the FULL picture Hughes has a hook in and still has decent control of the body.

[jmdrake]

What KF said, plus if your chin is tucked you can still get facelocked right into the ER if it's not sport jiu jitsu. Getting choked out might almost be preferable.

LOL. Oh please! I don't know how many times I've put the pressure on someone's face trying to get lock the choke in and they didn't tap. Often they said afterward "it was hurting my face" but it did NOT send them to the ER. You're freakin dreaming. And maybe a "face lock" is illegal in some tournaments, but not in the one I competed in. In the rules meeting nothing was mentioned about face locks. They talked about legs locks (some were legal and some were not) but face locks we're covered so it's safe to assume they are legal.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

Notice in the FULL picture Hughes has a hook in and still has decent control of the body.

Ummm....I noticed that. I pointed that out in my rebuttal to knifefighter's nonsense. And throughout the thread I've been pointing out the fact that negative had his hooks in. Yes, you need at least one hook in to stop the other guy from flipping you. But then you need hooks in to pull of the RNC on the ground too. (Unless you're dealing with someone who's totally clueless about what you're trying to do.)

And I guess that's my point. Being on the ground doesn't change the dynamics of the RNC all that much. Yes, most submissions only work on the ground. But RNC is one of the few that works either way. Hughes was clearly in a superior position, but Yenhoi insists on calling that "inferior" in the face of the facts. And despite being 110 lighter negative was getting the desired effect (the biker's knees were buckling) regardless of whether or not knifefighter or yenhoi think she was in the "proper position". Getting the desired effect (threat neutralized before you get stabbed) is really all that matters.

Anyway, this all comes down to simple probability theory. Let's assume negative could have choked thug biker out if he hadn't countered within 10 seconds. That's a fair assumption considering his knees we're buckling at 5 seconds. (Again, nobody was actually timing this so this is just an estimation). So let's say 5 to 10 seconds to do the choke out. The time it took thug biker to pull the knife is somewhere between the time he felt her jump on his back and the time he stabbed her. This is difficult to guage, but I think it's safe to say he had a 50 percent (.5) probability of stabbing his way out of the choke. (Anyway reading this, feel free to adjust the numbers as long as you JUSTIFY your adjustment).

Alright, according to the story that's basically ONE event. (Negative jumping on back, sinking in hooks and going for choke.) Now, following the knifefighter/yenhoi argument you've increased the events from 1 to 3. There's the takedown, the moving into position for the submission, and the submission itself. Each of those has a probability associated with it for biker thug to get his knife out. Yenhoi concedes no takedown is 100%. So let's say the takedown in 90% (.9). Now there's the time spend wrestling around on the ground to get postion. Let's say you're 70% certain you can do this without thug being able to pull out a knife. Remember, we don't know where the knife maybe hidden so we can't say "just controll his right arm" or "just make sure he doesn't reach his front pants pockets". Now for argument's sake, even though I don't concede this is true, let's assume being on the ground significantly decreases the time it takes to finish the RNC and/or decreases his ability to pull the knife. So we'll up the probability of finishing the choke before getting stabbed from 50 percent to say 70 percent. (.7)

Now multiply out the probability. 0.9 * 0.7 * 0.7 = 0.441

So we've effectively DECREASED the chance of escaping the encounter without getting stabbed from 50 percent to 44 percent!

People might get upset with me for asking for a "perfect" takedown or an "almost perfect" takedown, but that's because they're ignoring the compounding probabilities. Unless the dynamics of the actually RNC is THAT much different from standing and on the ground (and the empirical evidence STRONGLY suggests that it isn't) then you have to be VERY sure that you have a VERY good odds of success the events that take place while getting to your "preferred" RNC position.

In conclusion, I REALLY don't have any advice for negative (other than buy a handgun and learn effectively how to use it.) This was a SUCKY situation. Self defense is often a crapshoot and the odds were stacked against her. Doing what she did, at least she made good of the element of surprised. (Under knifefighter/yenhoi's scenario that's used up during the takedown). Maybe if she had been a bit stronger she could have pulled it off. Maybe knifefighter/yenhoi's advice would have increased her odds. Or maybe it would have simply gotten her killed. She walked away without being permanently maimed. Chalk it up as a win.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

John-
I've been training BJJ for 12 years and am a black belt.
You've been training for less than a year and are "almost" a blue belt.
I probably know more about the just the RNC than you do of BJJ altogether.

Maybe, but that doesn't mean you know everything about the RNC. So you've really never heard of tucking your chin?

As far as the state of the art, it is pretty much the “backpack” method of setting up the RNC popularized by Marcello Garcia- a master of finishing from the back.
And for a perfect example of why you don’t want to take the back while standing against a bigger opponent, all you have to do is watch 150 lb. Garcia try to do it against a standing 250 lb. Ricco Rodriguez in the 2005 ADDC world championship absolute division. Rodriguez slammed Garcia’s brains into the mat from there. The only reason Garcia tried it there was because he thought slamming was against the rules.

Again you're ignoring the fact that no slam was attempted in this story. I'm talking about what DID happen as opposed to what MIGHT have happened. What DID happen is negative got stabbed, and she could have gotten stabbed even if she had taken the biker to the floor first. And maybe Garcia should train with Hughes so he'll learn to drop (or keep) one leg on the floor to ward of the slam. Anyway, off subject.

95% of working out of the RNC is about hand control. One of the first things taught in BJJ is to always protect your neck with your hands- novice level principles.

You tuck your chin AND use your hands. Again, nobody ever taught you that?

You drop your hands to work the ankle cross submission and you will be choked out before you are able to get halfway there if you are doing it against someone who has a clue about what they are doing.

If you don't have a clue and know to tuck your chin yes. If you do have a clue and you have your chin tucked you've got a couple of seconds to pull that off, depending on the strength of the person trying to choke you. (In this case, someon that weighs 110 lbs less than you.)

What BJJ school are you training at that they are teaching you to drop your hands to work that submission?

What school are you training at where they didn't clue you into tucking your chin?

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Knifefighter]

So you've really never heard of tucking your chin?

Of course I have... but it doesn't do you much good if you are not defending with the hands.

What school are you training at where they didn't clue you into tucking your chin?

My first six years was at Torrance Gracie training mostly with Royce. I now train out of the Caique Academy.
Who is teaching you?

[jmdrake]

Of course I have... but it doesn't do you much good if you are not defending with the hands.

Well it's good to know that you have, though it's odd that you're just now mentioning this in the thread. Tucking the chin is one of the most important things you can do, and you've pretty much ignored that to this point.

Now, as for your point "it doesn't do you much good"...well I never said it did MUCH good. Just that it can buy you a couple of seconds. Yep, there's a risk if you drop your hands that your opponent will be able to pull his or her arm under your chin. (Small risk if your outweigh your opponent by 110 lbs).

My first six years was at Torrance Gracie training mostly with Royce. I now train out of the Caique Academy.
Who is teaching you?

What difference does that make? For the record I train at NashvilleMMA and they're under Lloyd Irving. But I care not for the "my sensei is better than your sensei" games people like to play. I only care about emperical evidence.

Oh, here's a thread of some other BJJ people who have looked at this.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=313000

Some agree with you on the "slam" versus standing RNC. Some say "that won't work". One person mentioned the OBVIOUS point I made:

As for slamming, bad idea. Also, if i am the one on the back, I will usually be ready to disengage my legs and jump off if I have to.

Oh, some more advice:

You can tuck your chin down and turn you chin towards your shoulder while bringing your shoulder to your chin, if he starts to loosen his grip make sure he doesn't apply the neck crank.

Another good thing to do is grab the outside of one of his feet with 1 arm and place your elbow from that arm in between his shin and his calf muscle and pull up hard with your other hand pulling on the heel if its not being used defending the choke, this hurts like hell and you may end up subbing him with it.

And this:

Yeh tuck your chin down and try and unhook ur legs, once youve done that , put one of ur legs behind ur oppnent so you are in a side head lock position, then from there you can do many things, u can slip you head out, go for an armlock or you can pick him up and take him down forards or backwards.

These techniques are for MMA or Sunbmission wrestling, if it is another discipline I have no idea

So I'm not the only one that knows you can release (at least) one arm and do something with it while defending the RNC if you have your chin tucked.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[anerlich]

Oh please! I don't know how many times I've put the pressure on someone's face trying to get lock the choke in and they didn't tap.

You may have technical issues with the proper execution of face locks, as you claim knifefighter does with the RNC, even with a whole year as a Lloyd Irving [sic] BJJ white belt behind you.

Ive had competent (the difference, IMO) grapplers catch me with this and I definitely felt the real possibility of injury. I had no choice but to tap.

I've heard of broken jaws, every black belt I've talked to about this mentions it so I very much doubt it is the urban legend you claim, and it's obviously possible to at least break someone's nose this way. You may be too tough to go to the ER in such a circumstance, but that would be your choice (and a foolish one).

We could go into eye gouges, neck cranks, etc. from this position as well, chin tucked or no.

I would imagine this would be treated as a "pressure point" attack in many tournaments, not that its illegality or otherwise is a central issue here. Try it in your next tourney and see how popular it makes you with the ref, judges and your fellow competitors.

I saw two tough customers in UFC8 (Elvis Sinosic, Chris Haseman) submit to chin pressure to the face. You CAN hurt and damage people this way.

What difference does that make?

LOL, you ask him here he trains, he answers your question, then you berate him for it by saying the above

[jmdrake]

You may have technical issues with the proper execution of face locks, as you claim knifefighter does with the RNC, even with a whole year as a Lloyd Irving [sic] BJJ white belt behind you.

I never claimed to be an expert on face locks. I've only claimed that they weren't "banned" in the BJJ competion I was in. Learn to read.

Ive had competent (the difference, IMO) grapplers catch me with this and I definitely felt the real possibility of injury. I had no choice but to tap.

Great. Wonderfull. Now did you have a knife on you? Reality check. This thread is about dealing with an opponent that had a knife. Not about getting someone to tap.

I've heard of broken jaws, every black belt I've talked to about this mentions it so I very much doubt it is the urban legend you claim, and it's obviously possible to at least break someone's nose this way. You may be too tough to go to the ER in such a circumstance, but that would be your choice (and a foolish one).

Never said it wasn't a possibility. But if you honestly think a 135 lbs woman is going to stop a 240 lbs biker from stabbing her just with a pain submission you're kidding yourself.

We could go into eye gouges, neck cranks, etc. from this position as well, chin tucked or no.

I suppose it was only a matter of time before someone brought up the "almighty eye gouge".

I would imagine this would be treated as a "pressure point" attack in many tournaments, not that its illegality or otherwise is a central issue here. Try it in your next tourney and see how popular it makes you with the ref, judges and your fellow competitors.

Ohhhh....pressure points. I'm sure that has every biker that's been to a George Dillman seminar shaking in his boots.

I saw two tough customers in UFC8 (Elvis Sinosic, Chris Haseman) submit to chin pressure to the face. You CAN hurt and damage people this way.

Again, neither of those people had a knife. Neither of those people felt they might "die" if they lost.

LOL, you ask him here he trains, he answers your question, then you berate him for it by saying the above

Reading isn't your strongpoint is it? Knifefigher asked me where I trained FIRST and he asked me in a smartassed way. It wasn't the "Hey let's just trade information about where we train" way but the "Your sensei must not know anything because he told you something different from what my sensei told me" way. And I haven't "berated" him for answering the question. I haven't "berated" him at all. I'm berating you because you can't read.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[anerlich]

I never claimed to be an expert on face locks.

No just on RNC after a year . Your inexpertise on face locks requires no admission.

I've only claimed that they weren't "banned" in the BJJ competion I was in. Learn to read.

You clearly generalised your own failures with them into "they don't work". Get your buds who also disagree to post here.

Perhaps you should take your own advice about learning to read, starting with your own posts

This thread is about dealing with an opponent that had a knife.

The topic of the thread seems to fluctuate depending whether or not your arguments are flying or getting shot down. When the latter happens, you say "the thread isn't about that", and vou're off on a different tangent. Interesting to watch ... if you have a fascination for the strange.

The thread was actually about a brave girl who did her best to protect her boss and paid dearly for it.

Reading isn't your strongpoint is it?

Nor yours, apparently, and you seem to have spelling and/or usage problems as well.

It's "strong point", and it's "Lloyd Irvin".

Knifefigher asked me where I trained FIRST and he asked me in a smartassed way. It wasn't the "Hey let's just trade information about where we train" way but the "Your sensei must not know anything because he told you something different from what my sensei told me" way. And I haven't "berated" him for answering the question. I haven't "berated" him at all.

And now I'm berating you for reading a whole lot of stuff he never said into his statements And isn't KF such a bad guy for being a smartass when you've been so polite and respectful to all throughout

I can tell my training buds I've met a "one year white belt, 'almost a blue' who trains at a school under some guy called Lloyd Irving in the US who knows everything about the RNC and how to grapple with a knife carrying 250 lb biker. Get this guy here for a $5000 a day seminar, NOW! Don't invite any black belts though, because this guy will just EMBARRASS them!"

Nice talking to you John, you're a hoot. Now take a cold shower or something, OK?

[Phil Redmond]

Andrew, I had no clue that negative was a female. I give her bigger props now.
Phil

[jmdrake]

No just on RNC after a year . Your inexpertise on face locks requires no admission.

Gee. It's not like RNC is all that difficult. Anyway my point is you were putting words in my mouth.

You clearly generalised your own failures with them into "they don't work". Get
your buds who also disagree to post here.

Please quote where I said "they don't work"? I didn't. I just did an LOL at your cliam that a face lock is a "worse position" than an RNC. But if it's so worse than why not skip RNCs and just go for face locks?

Perhaps you should take your own advice about learning to read, starting with your own posts

I've read my own posts. Never did I say "face locks won't work". But I guess in your mind the fact that I laughed at your ER story and claim that face locks are worse than RNC means I said that? Ok. Whatever you want to believe.

The topic of the thread seems to fluctuate depending whether or not your arguments are flying or getting shot down. When the latter happens, you say "the thread isn't about that", and vou're off on a different tangent. Interesting to watch ... if you have a fascination for the strange.

LOL. As far as I'm concerned the topic of the thread has never fluctuated. It's about whether or not someone make the best choice in an encounter with a knife. I'm not sure why you consider that a "strange fascination". Oh and I see you made a typo. I think you meant "you're" rather than "vou're". I'm just pointing that out because later you make a big deal over my typo on "Irvin".

Also my argument hasn't been "shot down". You can't shoot down an argument about whether or not someone can pull a knife while defending an RNC if as a part of your argument you "fluctuate" and ignore the fact that the person is carrying a knife. But hey, maybe you should go into politics. This kind of "dodging the actual question" can come in quite handy for you.

The thread was actually about a brave girl who did her best to protect her boss and paid dearly for it.

The title of the thread is "Why I will never try to choke or submit someone on the street". The girl realized what she did didn't work. Knifefighter and yenhoi think her chances would have greatly increased if she had taken him to the ground first. I disagree. It's really that simple.

Nor yours, apparently, and you seem to have spelling and/or usage problems as well.

It's "strong point", and it's "Lloyd Irvin".

And "vou've" misspelled "you've".

And now I'm berating you for reading a whole lot of stuff he never said into his statements And isn't KF such a bad guy for being a smartass when you've been so polite and respectful to all throughout

I was being nice and polite until KF made the following comment:

Looks like the McDojoization of BJJ has begun.

So, oh great and wise one, explain to me why I should think KF wasn't being a smartass?

Anyway, you and he have still missed the point on the technical issues on the argument of whether or not someone can pull a knife while defending an RNC. The question is, can you buy yourself a few seconds to pull a knife while defending an RNC with one arm and with chin tucked. I say yes, especially if you outweigh the opponent by 110 lbs. That doesn't mean that in a situation where there is no knife someone can't EVENTUALLY sink in the choke. Also, even if there isn't a knife, let's say you get in a face lock and I get in an ankle lock. You might break my jaw, and I might break your ankle.

One more thing. KF keeps harping on what I was "taught" rather then considering what people have SEEN happen in actual high level BJJ competitions. This is the same baloney we see in the "traditional" martial arts world. "My sifu taught me to do bong sau this way and my sifu is better because he was taught by so and so 50 years ago". That's nice. But in a real tournament (as well as a real fight) things happen fast. And some things boil down to a bit of luck. There's a counter to everything and stuff happens. That's why I posted the link to the Sherdog thread. Other people have had success defending the RNC keeping the chin tucked and temporarilly (as in for a VERY short time) dropping one hand to move hooks or do other things. Maybe such a move would never work against an KF trained fighter. Then maybe again one of KF's guys would end up with a broken ankle or stabbed. You can play it out in your own mind however you wish.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Knifefighter]

Please quote where I said "they don't work"? I didn't. I just did an LOL at your cliam that a face lock is a "worse position" than an RNC. But if it's so worse than why not skip RNCs and just go for face locks?

I have to agree with you here. I never go for face locks for two reasons- 1) in sport competitions, many people consider them to be kind of cheap and not very sportsmanlike; 2) I think the risk of getting bitten in a street situation is too high.

LOL. As far as I'm concerned the topic of the thread has never fluctuated. It's about whether or not someone make the best choice in an encounter with a knife.

Actually, the best choice for a 140 lb woman against a 250 lb man with his back turned would have been frying pan fu.

The title of the thread is "Why I will never try to choke or submit someone on the street". The girl realized what she did didn't work.

And one of my points was the reason it didn't work was because she had never trained it and probably didn't have a clue to how to make it work. The chances are, it wasn't on correctly and he wasn't going out. Anyone who has been choked out knows that your arms are worthless as you start to pass out. That's why many people get choked out during competitions, they try to tap at the last second, but can't.

I was being nice and polite until KF made the following comment:

Looks like the McDojoization of BJJ has begun.

So, oh great and wise one, explain to me why I should think KF wasn't being a smartass?

Of course I was being a smartass. However, BJJ, as developed by the Gracies, would never have you stop defending the neck to go for an ankle lock that will allow the choke to be sunk deeper or a shin lock that will set you up for an arm-bar.

One more thing. KF keeps harping on what I was "taught" rather then considering what people have SEEN happen in actual high level BJJ competitions.

Two points here:
1- BJJ competitions take place on mats, not hard surfaces and are often illegal, anyway. Slams that are allowed have less of an effect, although they have often shown to still be effective.
2- Have you ever seen an ankle lock or shin lock pulled off from a back mount in a high level competition. I know I haven't and I've been observing competitions for a number of years.

[jmdrake]

I have to agree with you here. I never go for face locks for two reasons- 1) in sport competitions, many people consider them to be kind of cheap and not very sportsmanlike; 2) I think the risk of getting bitten in a street situation is too high.


Actually, the best choice for a 140 lb woman against a 250 lb man with his back turned would have been frying pan fu.

Or she could have taken off her shoes and tried some toe-fu.

And one of my points was the reason it didn't work was because she had never trained it and probably didn't have a clue to how to make it work. The chances are, it wasn't on correctly and he wasn't going out. Anyone who has been choked out knows that your arms are worthless as you start to pass out. That's why many people get choked out during competitions, they try to tap at the last second, but can't.

Well that's possible. I usually tap as soon as I know it's sunk in and I have no escape options left rather than wait until I'm "seeing stars". But I can't imagine stabbing some 135 lbs woman if I wasn't in danger of choking. I'd think that would be bad for my rep. But then again I'm not a 240 lb biker and I might not understand that mindset.

Of course I was being a smartass.

Naw. [] And to be honest I don't mind you being a smartass. I was just a bit put off by anerlich making me out to be the bad guy for giving a smartass answer to a smartass question. Anyway, I guess that means we have something in common. []

However, BJJ, as developed by the Gracies, would never have you stop defending the neck to go for an ankle lock that will allow the choke to be sunk deeper or a shin lock that will set you up for an arm-bar.


Two points here:
1- BJJ competitions take place on mats, not hard surfaces and are often illegal, anyway. Slams that are allowed have less of an effect, although they have often shown to still be effective.
2- Have you ever seen an ankle lock or shin lock pulled off from a back mount in a high level competition. I know I haven't and I've been observing competitions for a number of years.

Ok. I think I need to explain this in detail. My instructor wasn't teaching us the ankle lock when he went over this. Rather he was stressing how to maintain your hooks in back mount. First he said to NEVER cross your feet because someone who knows anything will immediately ankle lock you. Then he added that he'd seen SOME high level guys cross their opponents feet for them. His point was to keep your hooks high and tight to prevent that from happening. I asked him about the possibility of just sinking the choke in deeper and he said "Yes that can happen. It's a risk. But this happens VERY fast when it happens."

Now, I take exception to the "stop defending the neck" part of your statement. Why? Because tucking the chin is part (in my book anyway) of defending the neck. Maybe it's only a small part, but it's still a part. Consider sequence from lockflow.com

http://www.lockflow.com/article_view.php?id=403

The author is basically doing what anerlich suggested. (Skipping out on RNC and going for a face lock). But note this comment.

In a rear mount, a natural instinct is to go for a rear naked choke. In this case my opponent tucked his chin. Take what is given to you don't force something that is not there.

Anyway, I haven't personally watched a ton of competitions. I'm going off what my instructor told me he saw.

As for the "slams", I know I'm beating a dead horse here but that didn't happen in this particular story. I think if someone tried to slam me I'd have a decent chance to drop hooks and put my feet to the floor as was suggested on Sherdog or I could just keep one hook in and one on the floor and Hughes did. If I was the one being choked and I had a knife I wouldn't bother with slamming at all, but that's just me.

Anyway, I think we all agree it was a messed up situation. A handgun would probably have helped more than anything else.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[Merryprankster]

John,

Do you train with Ed Clay?

Nice guy.

Tell him James Valentine said hey.