Why I will never try to choke or submit someone on the street.

[Tom Kagan]

What gives you the idea that attempting to strike an armed, Bad@ss biker who has 110 pounds on you would have changed the outcome?

[gabe]

[

:if you are strugling and do it wrong it won't work.

really?





"I know every fight consists of a testosterone filled, mentally ill, fighter."

That is a close approximation to what this actual fight described here was. Does it not fit your reality? Not compliant enough for you?

[godzillakungfu]

Oh, I see, we are going for descriptions.

Let's see hmmm......JJ doesn't work. Oh wait I've never trained JJ. I heard about an RNC I tried it and got stabbed JJ doesn't work.

Now, you are implying striking would've worked against the same person. Don't think so, he fought off two people (one a trained striker) grappling doesn't even figure into the equation.

[gabe]

Oh, I see, we are going for descriptions.

Let's see hmmm......JJ doesn't work. Oh wait I've never trained JJ. I heard about an RNC I tried it and got stabbed JJ doesn't work.

Now, you are implying striking would've worked against the same person. Don't think so, he fought off two people (one a trained striker) grappling doesn't even figure into the equation.

what...descriptions?

who...said....an ...RNC...doesn't...work.

who.....said...JJ...doesn't.....work.

who...said...striking....would...have .........worked.


read it real slow. try to understand.

[godzillakungfu]

The original poster. Slow enough for ya.

[jmdrake]

One reason you hear that BJJ "isn't good in the street" is because untrained noobs like you try to apply it without ever doing any training in it.

This was actually the perfect time to apply BJJ. You had only a single guy who wasn't even paying attention to you, but was focused on your boss. If you had a year or so of BJJ, you could have easily taken the guy down and controlled him so he would never have had a chance to draw his blade.

And later:

Oh right...
how silly of me to think that a bunch of guys with no BJJ training and whose only bladed weapon training is dancing around twirling a couple of butterfly swords would understand how you can take someone down who is not paying any attention to you and keep him from deploying his blade
.... nevermind

Well, speaking as someone who HAS had BJJ training (over a year now. going for my blue belt) I can't say I would have done anything differently. The thug had his back to him. First thing that goes through my mind when I'm rolling BJJ and I see someone's back is "go for the RNC". Also out of ALL of those training sessions we only did "knife defense" once or maybe twice. The knife defense was based entirely on "Assailant has knife out where you can see it." Since the school is mostly "sport" oriented this isn't such a big deal. In the ring if I RNC someone he'll likely tap (or choke) eventually even if I don't get it "pefect" in the first few seconds.

Still, I'm curious as the the perfect "takedown/control" that you think would have prevented the possibility of getting stabbed. Remember the parameters here. You don't know where Mr. Thug has the knife stashed. Mr. Thugg outweighs you by over 100 pounds. So please take us through your "knife proof" takedown - control - submission oh wise one.

Regards,

John M. Drake

[jmdrake]

What gives you the idea that attempting to strike an armed, Bad@ss biker who has 110 pounds on you would have changed the outcome?

Hey Tom. How have you been?

Anyway, while this wasn't directed at me, I'll answer it anyway. (You know me. Gotta throw in my 2 pence. ) With striking you usually have the "Carl Lewis defense" (running) as an option. Anyway, it sounds like a crap shoot. Because "negative" was locked in the choke, he couldn't see the knife coming. But then the choke did almost work and it seems unlikely (based on the size difference) he would have achieved a knockout with strikes. Of course in "striking" mode the biker might not have felt the need to pull out a knife. After all he didn't when the boss was wielding the frying pan. (But maybe the biker was smart enough to realize that "negative" was more in danger from the moron boss than he was.) So...who knows?

Regards,

John M. Drake

[gabe]

The original poster. Slow enough for ya.

obviously not slow enough for you. kindly point out where I've said 1)JJ doesn't work. 2) an RNC is useless and 3) where striking would have prevailed.



in addition, name a technique that if done properly, wouldn't work.

btw, i don't recall giving my view on JJ on this thread, but feel free to look up what i've said about BJJ on other trheads.

hopefully you will reply to me rather than this strawman tma-er you are inventing.

[gabe]

Bottom line is this guy was in a real life situation and people here are criticizing him with theoretical woulda, coulda, shoulda's- and presenting these as fact. I guess you can assume that everything will work "properly" in a real fight? Well maybe he did put a "proper" RNC, and it just so happens that there are plenty of factors that made it irrelevant. Funny how a few of you act as if you have all the answers for all these x-factors. I guess you would have detected the hidden knife. You would have blocked it. You would have this, would have that....

[Tom Kagan]

So...who knows?

I agree. However, negativecr33p is sure he would never again try this again and is sure he could "have side stepped with an elbow, hook, and probobly some serious kicks to the knees". Considering that he managed to allow himself to be trapped in the office, I don't think running even crossed his mind. Hence, my question.

I can't help but be amused at the Wile E. Coyote frying pan attack, regardless.

The other forum thread negativecr33p made on this subject:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=31428

John, While I've been staring at your UserID for some time now, it didn't dawn on me that you were the same you until you addressed me. I'll PM you.

[couch]

I think that you honestly did the best you could do and the fact that you had some MA knowledge under your belt (be it whatever) was the best thing for you in that situation. One-on-One and you tried to choke him out. Good on you.

Don't be worried about this art vs that art of some other idea that you feel you should have adopted, because I know that if I'm with you and the sh!t hits the fan - I can count on you.

Your morals and MA skill are just fine in my books.

I wish you all the best and a speedy recovery.

Sincerely,
Kenton Sefcik

[yenhoi]

Three initial problems:

Not taking the guy down to the ground before attempting the choke (or any type of submission or destruction.) This is even more important considering you and your boss outnumbered him.

Not expecting a weapon to be involved or to become involved. 'Specially after your boss escalated with the frying pan, and you continued with the choke attempt. These factors combined with you guys outnumbering him, would make almost any person involved in a fight, not to mention a biker, to use a weapon of his own. he had a chain visible, and looked gnarled. The knife was something that SHOULD have been expected.

Third was not taking advantage of the fact that the guy was after someone else. He didn’t decide to deal with you until you started to actually threaten him (choke attempt) - you could have been the guy with a frying pan after he got to your boss.

All mistakes of inexperience. Now you have learned the errors of your ways and assumptions, next time, like you already said - you wont be so quick to jump on someone’s back and just go for the choke.

Since everyone here seems to be an expert in grappling and knife fighting, then we ALL already know how easy it is to go for a choke while controlling or defending your opponents ENTIRE body. We also ALL already know that you don’t apply very many techniques at all while hanging onto a larger opponents back – ‘specially a veteran brawler like a gigantic biker guy with black boots and leather jacket and wallet chain. Where are all the WCK guys telling you that you should have hit him?

You went for a choke on the street from someone’s back without taking them down or hitting them, without any semblance of control. You were asking to get beat down.

[yenhoi]

MA knowledge is what got you stabbed. If you didnt think you could have taken out this large biker guy with a choke or something, you probably would have done something smarter.

[Liddel]

Wow this thread has taken an interesting turn..... some fairly inpolite things said given Negitive's REALITY !

Im not saying those people are WRONG nor am i saying they are right....

In my experience and my friends experience ( Which i also learn from ) the possibilities are endless and some things that in theory work for you 9 times out of ten may not work for you on some occasions....

This is why we train to learn more than one attack/defence is it not ?

Of course the RNC choke works, but who knows if this guy didnt have coke or meth running through his veins which would/could have negated the attempted RNC.....

Ive heard of the RNC failling because a suspect had sharp long fingernails that dug into an officers arm cutting quite deep..... he had to change an adapt while ****ing blood.

Heinsight is 20/20. Fighting is not absolute !

[Edmund]

Where are all the WCK guys telling you that you should have hit him?

They live far away on a place called Earth where you don't advise someone post-event to take on a big guy who turns out to be concealing a knife somewhere.

I don't know what fantasy scenario you kali guys are thinking where it's a great idea.