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Thread: Bai Bu?

  1. #1
    Eight_Triagram_Boxer Guest

    Bai Bu?

    I just have a quick question I want to run by everyone. I've recently talked to someone that says that they do not use Bai Bu (toe-out stetp) in their style of Bagua. When I asked why he told me 3 reasons. One, it leaves the inner leg open for attack. Two, it tells the opponent which direction you will move to next. And three, it isn't "healthy," conducive towards circulation (qi). I'm not saying I believe these reasons, although number one does make sense. It's led me to think about what styles have bai bu and if there are any that ommit it. Or, was it something put in recently? Anyone have any ideas on this?


  2. #2
    Waidan Guest
    I'd have to say that's fundamentally screwed up. Even a single palm change would be more-or-less impossible without the baibu step.

    I guess I see what he's saying regarding exposing the inside of the leg...but I think the speed and usefulness of the maneuver (as a step, a kick, a hook, whatever) outweigh any risk.

  3. #3
    count Guest

    By Bu

    I would say all three reasons are total BS. Probably comes from not understanding bagua or usage at all.
    1. If you are using a by bu step outside your opponent, How does it leave your inner thigh open? Your inner thigh is away from your opponent.
    2. You can never tell which way I am going since bagua IS the "art of change". The footwork of bagua enables you to change at anytime. It is only one step to gain leverage/control or trap or kick, it does not dictate what will follow.
    3. The more twisted and untwisted you do, the more benefit to overall chi circulation.
    I would be interested to know what style of bagua does not use by bu at all? My guess is none.

  4. #4
    count Guest


    How can you do an outside change without using By Bu?Ê

  5. #5
    Eight_Triagram_Boxer Guest

    This is what I expected...

    Good, good...this is what I thought too. What about origin of the step? Anyone got that answer?

  6. #6
    count Guest

    Best Guess

    My educated guess would lead me to believe that this is what Tung Hai Chuan took form the taoist circle walking and incorporated with lohan as his earliest methods of bagua. Others may believe something different. does it matter? It works!!

  7. #7
    razakdigital Guest

    bottom line

    ba bui and ka bui are fundementals of Pa Kua Chang...there should be no discussion of this anybody that says otherwise does not know pa kua chang

  8. #8
    wujidude Guest
    I can't agree with any of the guy's reasons for not doing bai bu, ETB. I agree with Count's assessment there.

    I recall a photo in the old Pa Kua Chang Journal which showed Cheng Tinghua stylist Sun Zhi Jun using bai bu as a trapping technique for the opponent's legs. My memory may be hazy, but I think the photo shows Sun going to the opponent's inside with bai bu (i.e., between the opponent's legs)to trap him. But even going around the outside of the opponent, bai bu skillfully used can be a great leg-trapping technique. Bai bu is also a good way to deliver low heel kicks.

    To the extent bai bu helps open up the kua, it improves qi circulation, in my view.

    I will say that, in the single palm change, my instructors at the beginning level teach to open only as far as shun bu (forward bow stance) after the initial kou bu. This is to ensure stability. After enough time is put into circle walking and the legs are strong enough, various combinations of kou bu and bai bu are practiced. I can understand that there would be a concern with knee instability in using kou bu for trapping without sufficiently strong legs and a sufficiently flexible kua. But conditioning should help here.

  9. #9
    beiquan Guest
    i read this in an article by Mr. Liu Jingru, who i believe is a Cheng style practitioner:

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Yin style walking method hardly applies Kou Bu (Toe-in step) and Bai Bu (Toe-out step) typical to other branches. Cheng Tinghua's Bagua ...uses a lot of Bai Bu, which is related to Cheng's studies of Chinese wrestling (Shuai Jiao), where this kind of footwork is widely used for throws and sweeps. [/quote]

    i've never seen any Yin style, can anyone verify this?

  10. #10
    count Guest

    Yin Style

    is my style and we put heavy emphasis on ko an by bu in combat and circle walking and forms. I will say this though, I have been training and sparring with someone who is a Guo stylist lately. In his circle walking he puts much less emphasis on by bu except in a change. Very different from my style. He does use by bu though. I am interested in what this man has said about Cheng style and I believe that to be true, however, I STRONGLY disagree with his assesment of Yin style.

  11. #11
    illusionfist Guest
    In Sun style bagua (which is Cheng Ting Hua lineage), bai bu is fundamental for hooking the ankle so that you can set up for a throw. On an energy circulation level, it would be my opinion that bai bu would actually HELP by giving the practitioner added flexibility in the lower leg and ankle.

    Peace :D

  12. #12
    maoshan Guest

    Ko Bu Bai Bu

    These are the fundamental steping methods, and
    theres more to the steping than just trapping,
    hooking etc..
    The 72 kicks come out of this stepping method.
    and remember, different styles of Ba-Gua emphasis
    different aspects of the circle. Now to some degree the steping methods of Cheng style and Yin
    Vary. But to say that Yin doesn't us Bai Bu is
    wrong. Yes, Sun Zhi Jun's Method uses alot of traps with the method but so does Shi Pei Qi's.
    In fact he has a form where you walk the circle
    with both feet in Bai Bu. Also don't forget that
    More kicks are used in the yin approuch.

    In order to use the 72 kicks you must know and
    practice bai bu kao bu.

    Each style of Ba-Gua Emhasises a different aspect
    of the circle. Each Master emphasizes his particular understanding of that aspect. If you w
    want to master Ba-Gua Study the circle variants


  13. #13
    wujidude Guest
    Great informative post, Maoshan. I'd love to see that all-baibu practice of Xie Pei Qi's. I believe it derives from the Duck Gua ;- ). Seriously, though, I think the connections between the stepping practices of baguazhang and the kicking/trapping applications are maybe underemphasized in a lot of the teaching I've seen. Knowing these applications makes me more aware of hip/knee/ankle alignment in baibu, especially when shifting weight. I think that's important to avoid injury, either from long-term wear or sudden blow-out (especially approaching 240 lbs.).

  14. #14
    count Guest

    72 kicks

    I was intrigued by your comment of "72 kicks" I know there are many more kicks than people realize in bagua. We even have a kicking form which includes toronado kicks. But I am racking my brains and I can only think of about half that many kicks and only about 12 that I think are unique to bagua only. Most if not all of the kicks do come out of the steps so I think I am on the right track. Could you elaborate on the 72 kicks? Maybe you know of a good source to see all the kicks?

  15. #15
    wujidude Guest

    i could kick myself . . .

    . . . for not knowing all 72 (sorry, that was lame). But seriously, "72 kicks" is a form in Xie Peiqi's lineage from Yin Fu (I'm pretty sure), as well as in Jiang Rongquiao's style (from Zhang Zhaodong in the Cheng Ting-hua lineage). Having said that, I've only read about the sets, and have never seen them performed. The Sun Xikun and Nine Palaces styles that I'm familiar with don't have such a set.

    Why 72? Maybe it's got something to do with Taoist numerology . . . 8 (bagua) X 9 (Nine Palaces, etc.) = 72 . . . . I don't know. I would suspect that the number 72 includes left and right variations of the same kick, as well as different angles of attack . . . would be great to hear from someone who's learned one of these sets.

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