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Thread: the Yi Jing (I Ching), bagua and you

  1. #1
    wujidude Guest

    the Yi Jing (I Ching), bagua and you

    What part does the Yi Jing play in your regular practice of baguazhang? Is the Yi Jing significant in your understanding of the art?

  2. #2
    Waidan Guest
    I'm a total rookie (1 year of bagua under my belt) so my vote doesn't count for much...but for me the I-Ching plays no real part in my daily training.

    I've read a great deal about the links between bagua and the I-Ching, and I've developed a fundamental understanding of the underlying principles (or at least I think I have!), but my teacher rarely makes mention of the I-Ching at all, much less actually relate it to our training.

    Maybe at a higher level of skill the philosophical aspects of bagua would be emphasized more in practice. (I'll tell ya when I get there ;))

  3. #3
    count Guest

    I ching and bagua

    Has very, very little to do with baguazhang and only a little more in bagua chi kung. I can see how some styles make use of it but in my own opinion, it is a stretch at best to say that it would improve my martial arts. Fun for fortune telling though!
    ;)

  4. #4
    RAF Guest
    I think of the Yi Jing as the old Chinese culture's "science" of their time, similiar to the way we use physics and molecular chemistry.

    People used penicillin long before they knew its molecular structure and action. Just like acupuncture, the west is now trying to translate it into scientific constructs which is the "yi jing" of our time.

    Pure speculation but I think they played bagua along time before understanding it through the lens of the Yi Jing. My sense is that the intellectuals were primarily responsible for analyzing bagua via the yi jing.

    Although it has not played much of a role in my training, there are hints that at a higher level, it may be more significant. For me, only time will tell.

  5. #5
    wujidude Guest
    Great post, RAF. I think I agree . . . I've been doing martial arts for a while, but baguazhang for less time. There may still be hope for me in embodying the philosophical correlations into my physical understanding of the art.

  6. #6
    TaoBoxer Guest

    Double Standard?

    When practicing Tai Chi Chuan it is considered essential to understand the interplay of yin and yang in your techniques.

    Anyone who professed any amount of Hsing I skill but could not explain the "how's and why's" of 5 Element Theory would not be taken too seriously.

    Why is it then that anyone who delves into the I Ching on this board is considered a "Mouth-Boxer?" I do not claim any real "understanding" of the I Ching nor do I claim to have the inside track on any implications to my Ba Gua Zhang practice, but my study of the I Ching has made me think in certain terms about my practice.

    First and foremost there is the idea of constant change and flow....the constant rythym of yin and yang. If you read the I Ching you can begin to sense a kind of rythym or pattern to the progression of the hexagrams. It is interesting to me....but it doesn't make me a better fighter.

    About the only I Ching related item which I can say has a direct effect on my Ba Gua training is the 9 palace drills. I think they are VERY important. The only thing that makes you a good boxer however is BOXING. Walking the Circle and crossing hands with other Boxers.

  7. #7
    mantis108 Guest

    I Ching and I

    May be I am a little bit off topic here, but I'd like to share something with you. I don't practice Bagua but I practice Taiji. So I read I Ching to research theories. Here's what I find so far:

    1) Although divinatoin is the most popular use of the I ching, that doesn't explore the full potential of the book.

    2) Like many other eastern studies, it is empirical behavioral. The best way to study it is not just to read about it. Learn to draw the trigram in both primodial and postmodial moduels, there are lots of interesting details in them that might spark something in you.

    3) The study of I ching is beyond acadamic pursuits. The western study approach offered in university is pretty superficial and generally view the I Ching as some mental disciplines which misses the point of I Ching.

    4) There are 4 principle operations in the I chings that can be found in combat.

    i Simplicity (initial action/reaction)
    ii Interaction (the exchange)
    iii Matemorphsis (counter)
    iv Continuum or imperminance (follow through)

    There are many other material in there to look at such as the Ying/Yang theory and the nature of power in internal styles (I posted that in a Bak Mei style thread). BTW, Taoist used the I Ching to explain the nature of Chi as well. I Ching may not be most people's cup of tea but dig deep and you will be rewarded.

    Mantis108

    Contraria Sunt Complementa

  8. #8
    TheBigToad Guest

    Thank you Mantis :)

    I too am a active student in the YiJing and would love to discuss the topic further.
    I wonder if Dong Hi Chuan knew of the YiJing connection to his Bagua and didn't start talking about it later because he didn't want to confuse his students that weren't ready for this information yet.
    If you can imagine the completeness of his Martial training to Yin Fu, imagine the depth of his possible knowledge reguarding the YiJing and Daoist connection.. something to ponder.
    -Kevin

  9. #9
    TaoBoxer Guest

    Which I Ching are you reading??

    A side note....

    The "Standard" version of the I Ching you see 99% of the time MAY not be totally appropriate for Ba Gua.

    Tung Hai Chun was a member of the Complete Reality sect of the Dragon Gate School of Taoism. Thomas Cleary has published the Complete Truth sect's version of the I Ching with an altered series for the Hexagrams. (That is to say, the Trigrams and Hexagrams are the SAME, just in a different order)

    Since we have such a HUGE argument on here as to whether or not the I Ching even plays a role in Ba Gua, I am sure the debate as to WHICH VERSION of the I Ching you use will be a lot of fun....

  10. #10
    mantis108 Guest

    Taoist Enigma Code

    Kevin,

    Great, this is a rear find! I love to further discuss this.

    Taoboxer,

    I understand where you are coming from. I think I will address the foundation of the argument first.

    First off, I use to consider myself a Taoist. Now I would said I am a quasi-Taosit at best since I have more and more influence from the Buddhist and Hindu traditions. Personally, I see them based on the same spirituality which is born of holistic and organic worldview. I would pause here otherwise I would be going to be off topic.

    With this base I study the I ching and Kung Fu much the same way. Most people READ I Ching as an intellectual discipline. Their understand of the I Ching is but preconditioned mechanical logic. That's the universities have to offer. To me, that is superficial. With the eastern traditions, one PRACTICES the I Ching with action and interaction. The body, mind and spirit INTERACT with each other that's holistic and organic in a mircomosic way. The body (anatomically and behaviorally) articulates all unverisal truths because of the union of the trinity (body, mind and spirit). That's the very same purpose of I Ching. It is not mere comments or remarks of some sages and scholars. One might choose to dwell and halt at the intellectual level but that's like using a only portion of the brain. Whether the approach is divination (fortune telling), health (Qigong), spirituality (enlightenment), and education (martial arts) is irrelevant. Further down the stream where the schools of thought (i.e. Dragon Gate Taoist school)formed within these approaches, we see all fragmented and specialized teachings. Sure, it will be fun to argue the subject but in the end we might be arguing over something when we are on the same team. If we look at the "source" (pretty Taoist huh?), I would say the answer is pretty clear.

    Extra piece of information. The standard version developed by the Confucian scholars is broken in to 2 volumes each the top volume is designed to articule the principles of nature and the bottom is the "applied" principles or the "change" of nature. This again reflect the organic world view of "principles" which is unlike "Law" (mechanical/non-interactive).

    Hope I have made my case clear.

    Mantis108

    Contraria Sunt Complementa

  11. #11
    count Guest

    Reconsidering

    In re-doing this chart I have decided there is nothing wrong with applying the I-ching to the practice of bagua. In our Chi Kung we have 3 levels. Stationary, Directing and Dynamic. The Dynamic postures are similiar to ones in the 8 mother palms so I suppose this is also applicable to Baguazhang. Yes Mantis108, I have carefully checked the directions in relation to the trigrams etc. It is correct.

    ]

  12. #12
    wujidude Guest
    But Count . . . is the color scheme correct? ;- )

  13. #13
    count Guest

    Actually, Yes!

    It is hard to put the colors in a direction except in the java version I am working on when you mouse over the trigram the colors will correspond with the correct direction. In this version I have used the colors separate except for white since the type doesn't show to well through it. And off white is not yet included as I will be adding another level for emotion and endocrine.
    :)

  14. #14
    razakdigital Guest

    wujidude

    From my experience there is nothing wrong with reading books...that's good to do...but remember to be practical...you want to learn pa kua? Find a good teacher (that REALLY KNOWS HOW TO FIGHT)and train hard. Walk your circle, do your palm drills, spar, do all of the things you need to do to get good...remember if you are doing pa kua for health then apply health items, if for fighting then learn HOW TO FIGHT, if you are just a person who just likes to dabble then read the I-Ching...but I'm quite sure in the old days in China cats weren't sitting down and having tea parties on the I-Ching only...I'm sure they were hard at work training and sparring...shoot you walk down in the forest going to one village to another and a bunch of theives jump out at you and they would rob you and take your I-Ching book ...(lol) but seriously bro trust me when I say you want practical information - I'm learning Hsing - I and the five fist = five elements. I know the THEORY behind the elements but I train hard with the practical application of it. It's like learning the animal styles when you fight you don't have to look like a monkey or a dragon...its about having their SPIRIT AND INTENT..I hope this helps...

  15. #15
    count Guest

    Razak

    I hear you and I know you are right. But if you really want to feel that fountain of chi, the chi kung sets have really made a difference in opening up my body and the chi just pours. Each posture, or combination in the dynamic, directly relates to an oragan and a trigram directions and follows the yin and yang in the lines. Therefore it really can't be separated from the i-ching. I know it's a theoretical concept but the more I think about it the more results I see. I have added at least one chi kung set to my morning workouts and I really notice the difference in my bagua too. I have always been against the notion that it makes a difference but I can't help noticing the results. something to think about.
    :cool:

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