The necessity of real fight experience in teaching?

[chisauking]

Why do some find calm in chaos?

Why do some freeze in a confrontation, no matter how slight? Even if some are a victim of a miner road rage incident, they are deeply distressed. Why is that so?

Why is it that some can control their emotional state of mind?

In the end, is it possible to find this calmness within a fight, without actual fighting experiences?

Only you can answer that (truthfully)

[Sihing73]

Why do some find calm in chaos?

Why do some freeze in a confrontation, no matter how slight? Even if some are a victim of a miner road rage incident, they are deeply distressed. Why is that so?

Why is it that some can control their emotional state of mind?

In the end, is it possible to find this calmness within a fight, without actual fighting experiences?

Only you can answer that (truthfully)

Hello Chisauking,

Seems like a good argument for the "mental" aspects of training.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"William, Ultimate,
Respectfully submitted:
Do either of you plan on going on to be "Sifu" (if you are already I mean no disrespect)? And if so, hypothetically let's say neither of you have had that much experience, using W.C. in street fights. So how do you plan on going about getting the experience to truly test the reality of your Kung Fu? And are you willing to put your life on the line in a fight, to gain the really hard core experience, et al, multiple armed opponents, singular armed opponent, and so forth?" (BF Lesley)


***ACTUALLY...I HAD my first streetfight using wing chun in 1978 - three years after I began wing chun...started teaching offically in 1984...and in fact...had another streetfight just five months later (against 2 guys)...and twice more times since then - once in the 90's and again in October, 2000.

But I didn't go looking for fights - they came to me.

And in fact I don't believe anyone should go looking for trouble...hard full contact spontaneous sparring with a number of quality opponents really trying to blast you is enough to qualify as "significant experience" in my book.

And if a real fight or self defense situation comes - learn from it thoroughly and convey that experience in as much detail as you can to your students.

[chisauking]

Dave sez: Seems like a good argument for the "mental" aspects of training.

Bang on, Dave.

That's the point I'm getting at -- although I like people to think for themselves I don't word things actually.

IME, the best fighters are calm, cool, collective, and totally ruthless. The question is, how they got to this stage of thinking?

On a personal basis, I think people without actual fighting experiences can still make excellent teachers if they have a deep understanding of the style that they are teaching, and pocess good communication skills......but only on the mechanical aspects of that style.

I don't think it's possible to aquire the mental aspect of real combat if one has not experienced it for themselves, so in this respect you can't teach someone you haven't felt yourself.

However, without the mental aspect, you have left out a large part of combat. A bit like a colt 45 without the firing mechansim.

[Sihing73]

On a personal basis, I think people without actual fighting experiences can still make excellent teachers if they have a deep understanding of the style that they are teaching, and pocess good communication skills......but only on the mechanical aspects of that style.

I don't think it's possible to aquire the mental aspect of real combat if one has not experienced it for themselves, so in this respect you can't teach someone you haven't felt yourself.

However, without the mental aspect, you have left out a large part of combat. A bit like a colt 45 without the firing mechansim.

Hi Chisuaking,

Herein lies the paradox of claiming reality training. Is ring combat sufficient to prepare one mentally for actual street encounters? It can go a long way and is one of the reasons I actually respect boxers, although I may not sound like it. Boxers are or can be dangerous because they are used to getting hit. Being able to accept blows and absorb them and keep coming back is not so much physical as it is mental. While many people may be able to take a blow physically, the thought of accepting it is what one must overcome. The willingness to accept that you will get hit, possibly injured yet still come back and fight on. This is hard to achieve consistently.

There are plenty of methods to help prepare one, visualization etc. But the bottom line is that no matter your training approach, ring, forms or video until you actuall are in a real life situation you can't say how you would really react. You can speculate and hope that your training has prepared you, but no one really knows until the situation arises.

You could be the worlds greatest UFC\Cage champ and yet still not survive on the street. There are plenty of case studies showing people absording punishment which should have killed them and not only surving but killing their attackers. Many of these had no formal training and their physical condition was hardly optimum.

Some of us are just too stupid or stubborn to give up no matter how much or how little we train.

[chisauking]

Anyone can fight, Dave. The question is, to what level?

There are many marital aids around, but I would argue nothing feels like the real thing. Sparring, no matter what form, is the emulation of fighting, but nothing, with the exception of fighting, will be more truthful than fighting.

It's my own believe that if you want to maximise your fighting ability, the mental aspect is essential.

If I had the choice to choose between a fighter or a scholor for a teacher, I would choose both.

The sword, as they say, is mightier with the pen

[Sihing73]

There are many marital aids around, but I would argue nothing feels like the real thing. Sparring, no matter what form, is the emulation of fighting, but nothing, with the exception of fighting, will be more truthful than fighting.

It's my own believe that if you want to maximise your fighting ability, the mental aspect is essential.

Hello Chisauking,

I would tend to agree with you that nothing duplicates fighting except fighting. I also agree that the mental aspect is vital.

I guess the only thing one can do is prepare as best they can with the resources at hand. Hopefully never have to utilize any of the training for real.

[ghostofwingchun]

Hello Ghost,

I am not a big sports fan, don't even watch the Super Bowl, so no I can not name anyone who is a great coach wihtout playing the game. But I would ask you to name 5-10 great athletes who were able to play their game at the elite level and yet were still able to teach others how to do the same.

Seems to me you are focused more on the ring than the street. Given your replies, I doubt that you are seeking to go out and confront others. Many who train with that perspective are living in a fantasy world where they train and go out and slay the dragons of the world.

Is street experience a benefit, yes, but only to an extent. A thorough understanding of the law and legal conequences would be more applicable. Given that each situation is different just because your instructor was able to apply his her skills on the street does not mean you could do the same thing, even in almost the exact situation.

If you want to focus on street defense then you would probably be better off attending shortened programs which focus on specifics rather than train in any traditional art. I think that what you will find is that these course will stress mental aspects even more than physical skills, although the physical skills are still needed.

Please excuse long post . . . I am just trying to be clear.

I am not focused on sport . . . I am talking about those interested in fighting . . . people like to separate out sport and street . . . as though these are two altogether quite different things . . . like apples and oranges . . . I am saying that they may be two different things but that they both use the same skills and abilities . . . such skill and ability will allow person to do either . . . boxing skill for instance is boxing skill . . . works in ring or street . . . just like wc skill is wc skill . . . or any martial art skill is martial art skill . . . those skills and abilities will be put to use in sport in the ring or on street. . . street or sport will only determine how we use those skills and abilites. . . if we do not have those skills and abilites in first place how to use them will not matter. . . if person can not box they can not use on street for self defense or ring in sport. So if person wants to become good boxer for instance . . . for ring or self defense . . . then they need good boxing trainer . . . one important qualification for trainer is that they have or had some proficiency as boxer . . . so that they can understand game and what is needed . . . I am merely saying that person can not coach or teach physical activity that involves physical skills if person not have proficiency in activity himself . . . sport is such a physical acitivity so I use it as example. I am not saying that ability to do sport well means person can teach it well . . . just that it is a necessary ingredient . . . being able to read does not mean person is good reading teacher . . . but can not teach reading with out it being reader . . . lol. Good coaches or trainers do not need to be champions . . . but they need to have had experience doing sport or activity . . . they are always people that have had some decent level of skill themself . . . evidence is overwhelming is this regard. I hope this helps explain my view better . . . if your view is different that is OK . . . it is good to exchange ideas.

Thanks,

Ghost

[planetwc]

Because a lot of people in WC are too ****y and arrogant. And those that have only surface exposure to the art don't see how it could possibly be effective. They want to match strength with strength, etc. etc.

I have been studying Wing Chun for 2 years now and I just wanted to ask a question. I have been to alot of different forums and it seems that most other systems do not like Wing Chun. I was just wonder as to why this is.

[shammy]

Lots of opinions on both sides of this debate, with merits to be had on both sides. One thing that might be taken into consideration is the student of this person who has ALL of this "real" experience. Even if the teacher is possessed of many years of "street" training, with hundreds of documented battles, of which of course, he's never lost, if the student doesn't have the mental and physical abilities and capabilities to go where this teacher wants him to, will it be worth having such a teacher in the first place? Also some have already debated the merits of looking for such an "invincible" instructor to learn from, and if that is the main, or worse, the only criteria, that one is sought after, then the reasons of the student looking must be looked at as possibly suspect, as to why it is such a necessity that the teacher be such. I would think that the most important thing a student might ask of his or her instructor is the ability to convey their knowledge and information to the student such that he or she can functionalise it for him or herself. As Dave and others have said already, keep it all in perspective, a bullet renders all ineffective. Sparring and other hard training sessions are good to balance out one's sessions of refinement when working on forms, or chi sau, or whatever. Like all of the rest of life, if there's no yin and yang here, then something's out of whack, and that usually means that the desired result may not be forthcoming.

[chisauking]

Ghost sez: I am not focused on sport . . . I am talking about those interested in fighting . . . people like to separate out sport and street . . . as though these are two altogether quite different things . . . like apples and oranges


Ho, ho, ho, Ghost, are you being serious?

Ever tried walking in a streight line? Easy, euh?

Try doing the same thing 300 feet high.

What's the matter with you, chicken****! (<humour)

Although, in principle, it's exactly the same thing, it's rather more difficult walking
in a streight line 300 feet high on a slim ledge, is not it?

The same applies in sport and street. Although the skill used is the same, it's the consequence of failure that plays on your mind. If you go of line or stumble whilst walking in a streight line on the ground, nothing much will happen. Do the same mistake 300 feet high, and you are hamburger.

Fight or spar with someone in a controlled environment, the fight will be stopped if it gets out of hand. Fight someone on the street, and the consequence of losing could be your life.

Do you gamble? Bet 2 dollars on blackjack and I bet you couldn't careless whether you win or not. Bet 10,000 dollars on the same game and I can assure you that even before the crouper (SP?) starts to deal the cards, your heart will be thumping uncontrollably. No difference in the game, buddy, but the stakes are a lot higher. So, as you can see, comparing fighting with a sport is very foolish.

As I have said before, it's mental. Now do you understand why I always advocate moving beyond the safety zone in sparring? What mental duress would one expose oneself to knowing a big birdcage would proctect them in the event of mistakes?

[Ultimatewingchun]

"As I have said before, it's mental. Now do you understand why I always advocate moving beyond the safety zone in sparring? What mental duress would one expose oneself to knowing a big birdcage would proctect them in the event of mistakes?" (csk)


***HERE WE GO AGAIN WITH THE ROUGH-TOUGH TALK...and the insulting references...and nothing to back it up.

Why don't you stop trolling and start telling us in detail (or show us a video)...or something...about how you...chisauking..."MOVE BEYOND THE SAFETY ZONE WHEN YOU SPAR?"

For instance: Do you use full power and full speed...bare-knuckled punching...to the head and face of your sparring partner?

And if so: how often?

And if so: how do your sparring partners feel about that?

And how often does this result in black eyes, bloody mouths, loose teeth, ringing ears, fingers in the eyes, damaged cheek bones, etc?




But I'm betting that your response to this is going to be quite a dance


....as usual.

[chisauking]

Victor sez: For instance: Do you use full power and full speed... bare-knuckled punching...to the head and face of your sparring partner?

I don't, Vic. It's enough that I control my opponents well. That's not to say my opponents don't. Just like my sifu, when I spar with people, I only do just enough to beat them, which is in keeping with the wing chun principles of not wasting energy or motion. If my opponent is in 2nd gear, I will shift to 3rd. If they shift to 3rd, I will move up to 4th. Only if my opponents try to do me serious injury do I use full force. For example, once a guy tried to knock me out in a sparring session, after smashing another guy's nose when sparring with him, so i decided not to play with this idiot. To cut a long story short, I dislocated this shoulder. Off course, people thats better than me has also shown me the same courtesy -- and that's how it should be...But that's not to say the option isn't there to seriously hurt someone. Indeed, on many sparring sessions I have ended black and blue, or with blood running down my trousers from taking kicks to my shins. Even as I write, my end knuckle is broken as a result of sparring.

The thing to remember is, when I spar with someone, I don't dictate to them what they can or can't do, it's up to them since I let them use full power, wearing no gloves. But you will find that most people that's any good will go on a progress level to find your level. Only people with low skill level will go full out on the onset, but they are usually quite easy to control. A few power shoots here and there normally stops them in their tracks, and suddenly a new found respect is shown you.

As to the reference of BIRDCAGE, I only say that to wind you up! OK, OK, I'd my fun. I promise not to use that term again if it makes you so angry (if I remember)

[Sihing73]

Hello,

So far we have been having a fairly good discussion. While not everyone agrees, we have been able to keep things on an adult level.

Please refrain from making personal attacks on one another. Remember, everyone has the right to their own view and the respect of their position no matter whether you think it is right or wrong.

[stricker]

quick post 50 seconds left...

id never learn from a teacher who hadnt a) fought in the street or b) in the ring