Chisau with other schools

[Mr Punch]

Good posts CSK.

[Matrix]

The moment of truth is when you engage hands........Are you being controlled? Are you being hit?

Some people don't want to know the truth. As Norman Vincent Peale said " The trouble with most of us is that we would rather be ruined by praise, than saved by criticism."

To answer your question, I have chi sau'ed with other schools before, and it's not been a problem UNLESS the politics of the situation cause it to escalated into more of a fight for dominance. If you are simply trying to test your skill and can check your Ego at the door, it can work wonderfully. Sometimes it's easier said than done.

[RedJunkRebel]

I don't think there are enough forums for the free exchange of information. A school or class setting isn't always ideal for this. Sure there are conferences that you have to pay to come to, but we need more free gatherings to meet and chi-sao and share. With that in mind, we need more people in different countries and regions willing to put on these types of events. Those that believe in respecting the differences among our many lineages and styles in our art. There have been a few and there still is one in Arizona annually, but Wing Chun as a whole needs more.

If anyone knows of more of these kinds of free gatherings internationally, let me know. I'd be glad to help promote these and try to encourage others to start more of them.

[Ultimatewingchun]

RedJunkLabel:

Your post has come closest to what I was trying to say in my first post on this thread - which was totally misunderstood by csk...(What else is new?)

Although you're still referring to only chi sao.

I kept repeating the line: "Where does the chi sao end and the sparring/fighting begin?"

My point was this: Why have chi sao events?

Either one of two things will usually happen...

1) They will become a sparring (or possibly a fighting) event more often than not when people from various lineages get together - due to egos and whatnot...

OR

2) They will prove very little because they will only cover chi sao (which is always just a limited expression of what wing chun is supposed to be: fighting).

SO WHY NOT JUST COME TOGETHER FOR SPARRING EVENTS?

So that the cards are already on the table!

Might prevent any misunderstandings - since wingchunner (A) might look upon chi sao as very different than wingchunner (B).

But if it's understood up front that it's a sparring get together - and here are the rules, regs, and protocols, etc...then people will know pretty much what to expect.

We actually had an event like this last May in Cleveland - but not enough people showed up - so it was kind of limited...but went well...as far as it goes. Very little ego stuff got in the way.

People understood pretty much in advance that we would be doing this and that, etc.

Tried to arrange another one here in NYC last October, but my work schedule got in the way - and I had to cancel it.

(Not that people couldn't chi sao if they wanted to in Cleveland - and some people did...but the fact that the main emphasis was the sparring kept things clear...ie.- this is chi sao...and this is sparring).

And the sparring was done with light gloves and protective gear.

[Matrix]

I kept repeating the line: "Where does the chi sao end and the sparring/fighting begin?"

IMO, chi sao is a cooperative drill used to develop attribuutes such as sensitivity and timing. The key-word being cooperative. Once it becomes competitive, it has moved closer to the sparring realm, at which point you might as well spar with gloves and gear, because you're not really sparring and you're certainly not doing chi sao.
Just to muddy the water yet again, cooperative does not necessarily mean passive.

[rindge]

CSK, I was somewhat thinking along a similiar line today. I think a broader question is why we do or do not go out and visit more schools to workout. I think it would be rare to visit a school to workout and not get involved with chi sau. I hear all the talk about politics etc and I got to tell everyone I don't buy it. Let me tell you why - I have been fortunate and that I have done a decent amount of doemstic and international travel. Whenever I travel and stay more than a day, I try and track down WC schools / teachers to visit and work out at their schools.

I will share some info and I'm not doing it from a bragging perspective, just trying to share and shed some light. I've worked out with the LT guys in Europe & Asia. I've worked out with Sifu Beau in Australia who started with Jim Fung and other in HK, I've worked out with Sifu Robert Chu and his students, Sifu Ng (Ho Kam Ming lineage) and Pete Roberts in San Diego, Sifu Chung in Pembroke pines, FL, A Moy Yat shcool in Miami, Kathy Jo and her band in Rochester, and most recently Sifu Redmond and his guys in Toronto. My workouts usually do not consist of more than one class session.

In all of my visits I have found the WC teachers willing to bend over backwards to accomdate me the visitor. They have let me chi sau with their students, practice forms, practice ground fighting, and most recently spar - with the folks in Toronto. Now maybe given that my skill level (and thus my ego) are low (Sifu Redmond can attest to my skill level I have never had any issues whatsover. Let me repeat never any issues. The Robert Chu guys were physical in their workout (sort of caught me by surprise), I went to the mat with the guys in Finland, Sifu Beau in Australia brusied my arms and my ego, and in the sparring session in Toronto no one pulled punches. All that being said, no egos, no conflict. Maybe it helps that I go to all these visits with an open mind and am just looking to learn. So when I read about poltics etc on this and other boards I sort of ask my where I don't see it. Maybe it also helps that the folks I have visited are very very accomplished martial artists and they have ZERO to fear from me. Maybe thats the key - if you are comfortable in your own skin / ego why would you worry about a visitor? IF you are ocmfortable with your own skin / ego why would you worry about visiting another school to workout? My experience suggests that the WC guys around the world are an open bunch of people who are willing to share and let you workout on a moments notice with their schools!!!

Rindge

[Ultimatewingchun]

Interesting post, Bill...because there is a gray area within chi sao (ie.- muddy water).

It should be cooperative at first...then more and more competitive within limits, imo.

But there comes a point where it makes sense to just start from a distance - and it's now beyond chi sao and into the realm of sparring.

And when the going starts to get rough...it's time for the gloves and gear.


..........................


Rindge:

It does depend on the attitude one brings when entering another wing chun school. I've known some very amiable wing chun people who would be welcomed just about anywhere - and others who you wouldn't want to spend five minutes with once you realize what they're about.

[chisauking]

Just to clarify some points, Vic:

Vic: Your post has come closest to what I was trying to say in my first post on this thread - which was totally misunderstood by csk...(What else is new?)

Easily done, Vic, using the written medium, since my writting ability is low and therefore open to discrepencies in what I'm trying to convey

Vic: Although you're still referring to only chi sao.

You have got to start somewhere

Vic: I kept repeating the line: "Where does the chi sao end and the sparring/fighting begin?"

Depends on the levels of the opponents

Vic: My point was this: Why have chi sao events?

Great way to learn from family in a relertively safe environment

Vic: Either one of two things will usually happen...

1) They will become a sparring (or possibly a fighting) event more often than not when people from various lineages get together - due to egos and whatnot...

Subdue your ego

OR

2) They will prove very little because they will only cover chi sao (which is always just a limited expression of what wing chun is supposed to be: fighting).

Actually, chisau proves comprehensively many things about the practitioner: structure, balance, sensitivity, footwork, understanding and the ability to apply wing chun techniques like Tan, Bong, Fook, Wu, the ability to yield to stronger force, short range power (fat-lik), etc, etc.

Vic: SO WHY NOT JUST COME TOGETHER FOR SPARRING EVENTS?

Chisau is the begining of sparring. Sparring = exhange of techniques

Vic: So that the cards are already on the table!

Cards are irrelervent until you know what game you are playing

Vic: Might prevent any misunderstandings - since wingchunner (A) might look upon chi sao as very different than wingchunner (B).

People misunderstand each other in virtually every thing. Not exclusive to chisau

Vic: But if it's understood up front that it's a sparring get together - and here are the rules, regs, and protocols, etc...then people will know pretty much what to expect.

Same could apply to chisau

Vic: We actually had an event like this last May in Cleveland - but not enough people showed up - so it was kind of limited...but went well...as far as it goes. Very little ego stuff got in the way.

If particpants can subdue their ego in one gathering, why can't they in another?

Vic: People understood pretty much in advance that we would be doing this and that, etc.

Same can be said of chisau gatherings

Vic: Tried to arrange another one here in NYC last October, but my work schedule got in the way - and I had to cancel it.

Try again, this is the way, I feel, to unit family.

Vic: (Not that people couldn't chi sao if they wanted to in Cleveland - and some people did...but the fact that the main emphasis was the sparring kept things clear...ie.- this is chi sao...and this is sparring).

They are one and the same -- only the intensity is different

Victor, if you had studied the progressive chisau levels that I had stated above, you would realise chisau ultimately leads to full out gor-sau.

The one major stumbling block for anyone trying to formulate a safe way to emulate fighting without sustaining serious injuries has always been difficult, but our wing chun ancestors in their wisdom came up with chisau.

Chisau is an ingenuis progressive level of sparring leading to full out gor-sau, and it's probably the safest method to hone your fighting skills on a gradual basis to minimise injuring along the way. You would start with dan-chisau, then look-sau or dan gor-sau, progressively moving on to suong chisau. Next, you move on to suong gor-sau, and then finally gor-sau without pre-contact (the level of gor-sau intensity is also incremental until full power is used). The way this model is formulated, your bones, muscles or ligiaments is slowly but surely strengthened to take an increasing workload.

Chisau is such an indepth part of wing chun, it's beyond the scope of this forum. However, I will just quickly cover the following points, which I feel would help many people to comprehend chisau.

1) If you want to train with a fellow wing chun practitioner, don't you take into account of their level? For example, would you go into full sparring with a guy that has just started?

2) Without sparring in chisau first, what are you actually using in a full out sparring session?

3) Chisau is a much more controlled plateform. If you can't use wing chun's bread and butter techniques within chisau, how can you do the same in full out sparring?

4) How can you devlope your wing chun techniques and your fighting attributes safely in full out sparring?

5) There are many ways to develop our fighting skills, but since this is a wing chun forum, shouldn't look at the wing chun way first? Otherwise, why are we discussing wing chun? We may as well talk BJJ, Savant, tai chi, judo, western boxing, etc., etc., and confuse the discussion even more.

6) Without slowing building your body up first, you will be suseptible to many injuries. That's why people who go streight into full out sparring always sustain injuries easy.

7) Off course, if both particpants are of high level, you can go streight into full out gor-sau (full out sparring)

[chisauking]

Bill (Matrix) sez: IMO, chi sao is a cooperative drill used to develop attribuutes such as sensitivity and timing. The key-word being cooperative. Once it becomes competitive, it has moved closer to the sparring realm, at which point you might as well spar with gloves and gear, because you're not really sparring and you're certainly not doing chi sao.
Just to muddy the water yet again, cooperative does not necessarily mean passive.

Bill, I think you have to be careful in using 'coopertive' within chisau. Coopertive to me means you help somone willingy -- something you definately should not be doing in a fight. For example, if someone throws a punch at you, would you help to draw the punch towards yourself?

Off course there should be cooperation at first in helping your partner to train chisau, in that you would feed him actions which he can act upon with very little resistance, but once he's understood that particular action, or technique, then you should make it difficult for him, therefore you are no longer cooperating with him.

One of the main purpose of chisau is to train the person to understand energy, or to be more precise, to deal with energy. If you help, or cooperate too much, he will never understand the energy given by a genuine opponent that is not helping at all

People can 'muddy' chisau all they want, but the truth is in the doing. If you engage in chisau with a partner and he's hitting you at ease, then I don't care what you call it -- chisau, girl-sau, cheese-sauce, etc., etc. it's LAPSAP-SAU (rubbish-hands)

[chisauking]

Good attitude, Rindge

[RedJunkRebel]

Let me know when you plan another gathering like this, Victor. I'll be happy to help promote it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Look, csk...

Chi sao is a fantastic drill/training tool that teaches us a great deal about various important factors needed to be a good wing chun fighter - and yes...it does lead to sparring/fighting.

This is true.

But they are not one and the same.

A real fight is not going to begin at the double arm chi sao range - with two people facing each other directly at about three feet away with all four arms/hands in a roll.

Right? (Of course).

So there comes a point where you need to leave the chi sao behind and spar...and not just spar against someone using the same system you are (wing chun).

But you say that you have to start somewhere - so why not with chi sao?

Okay...but then what?

How long do we chi sao with each other before we come to the realization that this is not enough?

I have always valued the fact that many of my students through the years here in NYC had experience in other systems...boxing, karate, kickboxing, TKD, free style amateur wrestling, jiu jitsu, and wing chun systems (other than TWC).

(Although in truth I have always kept the "move-right-in-and-attack-the-middle-of-his-body" wing chun strategy/training I learned from Moy Yat in the back of my head and use it once the opening has been made from a very close distance...which is also part of what William Cheung teaches - and he is indeed a Master at it - but doesn't emphasize it).

My point? I have learned more about how to use wing chun in a sparring/fighting situation from working against my students (and outsiders) who used moves from other systems than I could ever learn from just doing gor sau or chi sao with others who are also using wing chun.

But the gor sao against other wingchunners will teach more than simply doing chi sao against them.

And sparring against people who might use any kind of move is the best.

That's the point...and this requires...as I've said to you so many times now...all out hard contact sparring with lightweight semi-fingerless gloves and protective gear - otherwise serious injuries are risked.

And done frequently.

Now to be able to do this with people from other wing chun systems (lineages) present (and some kyocushin karate people were also going to attend the event at my school last October)...to do this with other wing chun lineages requires lots of political/people/negotiating/diplomatic skills - due to the egos involved - more often than not.

So there's nothing wrong with chi sao events within lineages - but I personally don't think they go far enough and wouldn't be interested in just chi sao.

It's high school and college work.

How about post-graduate stuff by now?

[Matrix]

Interesting post, Bill...because there is a gray area within chi sao (ie.- muddy water).

Victor,
I think that Chi Sao is one of the most underrated components of Wing Chun training. It is a progression of training, starting with simple rolling (poon sau) and then adding elements to develop coordination, sensitivity and timing. Yes, it will get more "competitive" to a point.
If I'm training with a younger brother, I'm going to be sensitive to his skill level and feed him energy and techniques that challenge him, raising the bar as he gets more comfortable. This is what I mean by "cooperative". Otherwise, I could just shut him down right away and he (and I) learn very little or absolutely nothing.
I have been taught, and I believe this to be true, that if I want to improve I must help my brothers and sisters improve, as I expect them to help me. They get better, which forces me to improve as I adapt and my sihings must also maintain the pace as I sharpen my skills....... and so it goes.
In an other environment, I might expect to learn to take a beating day in and day out. I guess that will come in handy in future.

[Matrix]

Bill, I think you have to be careful in using 'coopertive' within chisau. Coopertive to me means you help somone willingy -- something you definately should not be doing in a fight.

Is chi sao equivalent to fighting? I thought it was a drill.

For example, if someone throws a punch at you, would you help to draw the punch towards yourself?

That sounds more like collusion than cooperation, but I can see how you might interpet it that way. Of course, that's not what I mean. In chi sao, if we have two equally matched players, I think we're going to end up in a stale-mate situation where neither person learns very much. We need to offer a challenge while allowing the other person to figure out how to make things work for them.

As you say, you can cooperate too much. Maybe to the point of being totally passive. I don't think that's helpful either. Like many things in life, we need to find the proper balance - which is a skill in itself.

People can 'muddy' chisau all they want, but the truth is in the doing. If you engage in chisau with a partner and he's hitting you at ease, then I don't care what you call it -- chisau, girl-sau, cheese-sauce, etc., etc. it's LAPSAP-SAU (rubbish-hands)

I call it "time to go back to the basics"

[chisauking]

Vic: A real fight is not going to begin at the double arm chi sao range - with two people facing each other directly at about three feet away with all four arms/hands in a roll.

There are no pre-conditions in gor-sau, which is the highest level of chisau. People have to start by teaching students in a prefixed position because you have to start somewhere. If you encounter a fight on the street, do you say 'hold on, I've to put my gi on'?


Vic: So there comes a point where you need to leave the chi sao behind and spar...and not just spar against someone using the same system you are (wing chun).

To me and many of Yip Man's direct students, chisau is the start of sparring. Yes, you need to spar with all range of people, but sparring with wing chun people offer a lot more than some wing chun practitioners think. In wing chun, the attack and angles are very tight. If you can handle precise and tight attacks, wide and swinging attacks are vastly easier. If a good tradesman can work to torlerances of micro millimetres, working in metres is no problem at all.

Vic: But you say that you have to start somewhere - so why not with chi sao?

Okay...but then what?

As I have stated very clearly, you work your way up to full out gor-sau.

Vic: How long do we chi sao with each other before we come to the realization that this is not enough?

How long does one take to master -- or even achieve to a respecable level -- wing chun basic techniques? If you can't handle basic chisau, why try to train at a vastly higher level? If you can't even perform a single somersault, why try doing triple?

Vic: I have always valued the fact that many of my students through the years here in NYC had experience in other systems...boxing, karate, kickboxing, TKD, free style amateur wrestling, jiu jitsu, and wing chun systems (other than TWC).

(Although in truth I have always kept the "move-right-in-and-attack-the-middle-of-his-body" wing chun strategy/training I learned from Moy Yat in the back of my head and use it once the opening has been made from a very close distance...which is also part of what William Cheung teaches - and he is indeed a Master at it - but doesn't emphasize it).

My point? I have learned more about how to use wing chun in a sparring/fighting situation from working against my students (and outsiders) who used moves from other systems than I could ever learn from just doing gor sau or chi sao with others who are also using wing chun.

Again, if you can't execute basic wing chun techniques within the plateform of chisau, what makes you think you can execute those same techniques in full out sparring? If you haven't even reach suong chisau stage, how can you handle full out gor-sau?

Vic: But the gor sao against other wingchunners will teach more than simply doing chi sao against them.

Teach them what? Without the basics or foundation, your wing chun is nothing.

Vic: And sparring against people who might use any kind of move is the best.

I totally agree, but only when you are ready. If a student can't even perform a tan to bong properly, how can they handle a greater permutations of attacks?

Now to be able to do this with people from other wing chun systems (lineages) present (and some kyocushin karate people were also going to attend the event at my school last October)...to do this with other wing chun lineages requires lots of political/people/negotiating/diplomatic skills - due to the egos involved - more often than not.

Forget diplomacy. When you spar with other styles, you are basically challenging them. There's no progressive sparring plateform like chisau.

Vic: So there's nothing wrong with chi sao events within lineages - but I personally don't think they go far enough and wouldn't be interested in just chi sao.

Fair enough, maybe your chisau has already reached it peak.

Vic: It's high school and college work.

How about post-graduate stuff by now?

I can't even do basic maths, let alone quantum physics