Chisau with other schools

[Matrix]

To me and many of Yip Man's direct students, chisau is the start of sparring.

Are you a direct student of Yip Man? Or are you just speaking on their behalf? Just curious.

[chisauking]

Bill sez: Are you a direct student of Yip Man? Or are you just speaking on their behalf? Just curious.

No, I'm not Yip Man's direct student, but I study under a senior direct Yip Man student, which makes me a 10th generation practitioner.

I'm speaking on my own behalf, but in reference to the above statement, many direct Yip Man students have stated the same regarding chisau. Why don't you ask them directly? Better still, if you can obtain a copy of 'FIGHTERS' issue November 1983, page 41, Kan Wah Chit, one of Yip Man's most senior student, stated this exactly as I'd. I quote: chisau is the begining of sparring, end quote.

[chisauking]

Opps, miss this:

Bill: Is chi sao equivalent to fighting? I thought it was a drill.

To be precise, chisau contains the techniques in which we, wing chun practitioners, use to fight. The energy aspect of chisau is the same in real fighting. If you can't exert or control energy within chisau, you will not be able to do so either in a full out fight, using wing chun techniques.

Bill: As you say, you can cooperate too much. Maybe to the point of being totally passive. I don't think that's helpful either. Like many things in life, we need to find the proper balance - which is a skill in itself.

Can I just elaborate a little regarding what I would term cooperation in chisau...

If you push or pull someone, and he follows the direction of your force voluntarily without resistance, that, to me, would constitute as being cooperative. In a real fight, your opponent would be doing his upmost best to resist your energy. That to me would be uncooperative. Therefore, you must be uncooperative during chisau in order for your partner to learn how to overcome resisting, or uncooperative, forces.

Hope that was a little clearer.

[Matrix]

To be precise, chisau contains the techniques in which we, wing chun practitioners, use to fight. The energy aspect of chisau is the same in real fighting. If you can't exert or control energy within chisau, you will not be able to do so either in a full out fight, using wing chun techniques.

ChiSauKing,
Now I'm with you. Although I might not necessarily say "techniques", per se, but attributes that are applied in fighting. Movement, Timing, Chung chi, etc that are applied in the techniques is what I'm looking for. I can train techniques in the air or with a wooden dummy. A partner who is working with me in chi sau adds an element that is difficult to find elsewhere.

If you push or pull someone, and he follows the direction of your force voluntarily without resistance, that, to me, would constitute as being cooperative. In a real fight, your opponent would be doing his upmost best to resist your energy. That to me would be uncooperative. Therefore, you must be uncooperative during chisau in order for your partner to learn how to overcome resisting, or uncooperative, forces..

True enough. The resistance seems to come naturally to all of us. When training with younger brothers, they will tend to resist and older students can use that resisting energy as part of their skill development. It's interesting how we need each other in that way. It's a positive element of my Wing Chun traing that I did not see when I trained Karate, kick boxing or Tae Kwon Do. I'm not saying they don't have it, I just don't think they have a chi sao equivalent that makes it so apparent.

When I push or pull an older student he or she will tend not to resist, and I should train for that as well. If I pull them, they may walk right through me and come with the energy I am providing. The idea, IMO, is not to get caught up in the expectation of "what will happen in a real fight". What happens, happens. The idea of training is to try avoid having preconceived notions of what "should" happen, but rather to sense what "is" happening and respond from there.

Thank you for the clarification.

[Matrix]

Better still, if you can obtain a copy of 'FIGHTERS' issue November 1983, page 41, Kan Wah Chit, one of Yip Man's most senior student, stated this exactly as I'd. I quote: chisau is the begining of sparring, end quote.

Sorry if it seems like I'm playing with semantics, but it sounds like sparring and chi sao are not equivalent, but rather that chi sao is a precursor to sparring. The reason I want to make the distinction is that some people think they are sparring when they are doing chi sao. I see them as different animals. They may be closely related, but they are distinct, IMO.

[chisauking]

Then could you define what sparring is actually?

May I ask who your sifu is, so that I may understand your perspective better?

PM me if you prefer

[Matrix]

Then could you define what sparring is actually?

Like I said before, I see chi sao as a cooperative drill, where you are working together to a degree to improve the attributes I mentioned earlier. Both players are winners here.

Sparring is a competition to test your fighting skills against an opponent who is trying to defeat you - there is a winner and a loser.

Both methods have their value, they are just not one and the same.

[chisauking]

Bill sez: Sparring is a competition to test your fighting skills against an opponent who is trying to defeat you - there is a winner and a loser.


I'm not sure I would agree with your definition, Bill. For example, I could play the role of an opponent by feeding my partner punches and kicks that are controlled, so that he could work off my techniques, and I would also counter his attacks, would that constitute sparring?

Any way, I respect your thinking, so I will leave it at that.

[Matrix]

For example, I could play the role of an opponent by feeding my partner punches and kicks that are controlled, so that he could work off my techniques, and I would also counter his attacks, would that constitute sparring?

I would consider that a feeding-drill, not sparring. Oh well.

Any way, I respect your thinking, so I will leave it at that.

Like wise. I think it's a limitation of this medium. The words can sometimes get in the way of expressing our real meaning.

Cheers,