Statement About Lineage Effectiveness...

[Liddel]

Hey Joe,

You Mentioned earlier -

"I am impressed with the amount of good reputation traditional Wing Chung has.

I feel that the hands proffered by disciples of the classical way are superior."

For my piece of mind could you just clarify what you mean by "traditional" and "classical way".

Im just a bit confused as there are a few different interpritations of these words.
Everyone seems to have different meanings for them, whats your's ?

[JoeJacari]

Good question:

I think "classical" or "traditional" would be

1. Siu Lim Tau
2. Chum Kiu
3. Bil Gee

Using those three forms as taught by Yip Man and his students withouth much modification or changing their spirit.

4. Long Pole
5. Butterfly Swords
6. Non-modified "Jong" and forms on such

Throwing in boxing, grappling, MMA would be moderations that are outside of the style.

That's my version of classical/traditional in a word.

Now, you mentioned someone quitting Wing Chun and going MMA?

If he wants to fight, that's fine, MMA is the way.

If he wants to learn a traditional martial art Wing Chun is great.

I'm still up in the air for self-defense. Is it better to stick with traditional Wing Chun or go MMA style?

Any opinions?

Thanks!

--J. Jacari

[Green Cloud]

JoJacari what are you talking about, all the styles you mentioned are very effective styles and shouldn't be dissmised. Even grappling, I don't care if you don't like to go to the ground it happens and you have to deal with that.

Personaly I like stand up but found myself on my back a few times, not to bring it up but look at william chung when he jumped by that lung ting guy. Don't you think william would have had a better chance if he was aware of how to go into the guard.

That kind of day dreaming of my unbeatable traditional kung fu style gets a lot of guys in trouble. Any way I realy couldn't follow your point exactly

[fiamacho]

Is Lineage effective ... well it is only as effective as the person doing the Instructing. This is the same for ALL styles, if the Instructor is poorly trained or is just "plain poor" then don't expect anything to effective.

If you as a student are poor then the same logic applies, all Martial Arts are great all systems work regardless of whether the practioner is a grappler, boxer or boxing art etc. the only defect is the practitioner.

Is this a nothing answer, well in all honesty NO ... I get to sick and tired of ignorant people rubbishing everything without looking at the merits behind why styles or systems are the way they are.

There is no Martial Art in the world today, which is just "free fighting" at the end of the day the attacks, counters and all ourt defence all follow a pre-conceived pattern that was taught or practised as part of a system.

I have met some brilliant Modified Wing Chun practitioners in my time as well as some brilliant Traditional Wing Chun practitioners, then again by the same token I have met some total CHUMPS. As long as I am not in the CHUMP Brigade and I personally can see how effective the Art is for me, then yes that lineage, version or steam of Fighting System works for me.

[JoeJacari]

The lineage discussion has been great. Everyone had good input.

There are different variations and striations in the theme of lineage, style, etc.
It almost can never end if you slice and dice it.

Here's another angle:

Wing Chun is more about position and timing and technique, therefore it's great for those who are:

1. Female
2. Have a tiny body/undersized
3. Are skinny
4. Tall & lanky

Now, I'm talking about situations where people meet on the street and the average guy out there is:

1. A streetfighter/non-MMA type
2. Standard Karate fighter
3. Knows nothing about fighting
4. Male vs. female
5. Bigger male vs. smaller opponent.

In 1-5 directly above, the traditional/classical Wing Chun guy/lady with at least 1 year of diligent practice in a legitimate lineage will probably fare very well.

My question is what combinations would Wing Chun excell in. Are there examples, say for instance fighting a bigger guy in MMA/Grappling on the street/hard surface, where a Wing Chung guy with a smaller/tiny body might be able to prevail?

Any input on experiences of mismatching size, weight, style and Wing Chun coming out ahead would be interesting.

--J. Jacari

[Liddel]

I suspect Joe you may change your perspective when you either -

1) begin assisting you sifu in teaching
2) teach yourself
3) Touch hands with a VT school that is different to you but still has skill.
(becasue there are many types of skill)

Things arent so cut and dry IMHO.

[Chum Kil]

I suspect Joe you may change your perspective when you either -

1) begin assisting you sifu in teaching
2) teach yourself
3) Touch hands with a VT school that is different to you but still has skill.
(becasue there are many types of skill)

Things arent so cut and dry IMHO.

Liddel,

I'm betting JJ will no longer be doing Wing Chun.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . I think "classical" or "traditional" would be

1. Siu Lim Tau
2. Chum Kiu
3. Bil Gee

Using those three forms as taught by Yip Man and his students withouth much modification or changing their spirit.

. . . . --J. Jacari

Leung Jan retired from Fatshan and moved back to his native village of of Gu Lo. There he taught a version of WC using San Sik and no forms. There are many lineages of WC outside of the Yip Man lineage that are just as valid but look different.
PR

[kj]

Ken has not said an hour. More like 20 minutes. If YOU want to take longer fine.
But approximately 20 minutes or so will be just fine.

Ditto that.

I've been on hiatus for awhile, and just catching up on the forum. It's always interesting to see what pops up when you're off and away for a bit. I still have more to wade through; I admit my curiosity has been piqued.

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Well done, David.
- kj

As a word of advice...I'd ease up on the lineage trumpeting here. It can certainly be exciting to get involved in a new pursuit like training WC. Conserve your energy for when the going gets tough and you reach plateaus. Better to perservere and plow on through to the next level then burning out, after your initial lineage lust burns out, and it is down to working on the development of your PERSONAL skill in Wing Chun.

Neither Ken or Carl or anyone else within our lineage can grant you magical Wing Chun powers by mere association alone. You are going to have to sweat for it--work it, and keep training year in and year out. You'll find that to be the case whatever your lineage is.

Neither Ken or Carl have a monopoly on Wing Chun skill.

Attempting to rub that into the faces of forum members here is not going to go very well. Several years ago there was another student at one of Carl's schools who came on too strong and talked up Carl to the detriment of others. All in the early stages of his training. He then burned out on Wing Chun and rolled over to MMA and general crosstraining--without a trace of Wing Chun left in the mix.

In the meantime, enjoy your training and have fun. If the training philosophy and methodology of your instructor clicks with you that is great! It should make training the art that much more fun. It's all excitement in the beginning of the hard work.

You'll find though that many others have the same level of excitement and commitment with their own instructors and their own lineages.

print out the following article and refer to it OFTEN.

http://www.wingchun.com/apath.shtml

It really reflects Ken's approach to Wing Chun--I personally went over that article with Ken literally line by line before posting it on my website. So it really does reflect his philosophy with regards to Wing Chun.