Hold to the basics

[Liddel]

Its asked "what are the basics ?"

Well the basics are different from person to person, as in the idea of the basics.
But in my mind they are what any one person needs to perform Kung Fu.
Which is to say practice and or fighting.

So then, with this in mind ill take a chance with you lot ( ) and say

1) Form - How an action is done
2) Force - The energy at work (which ones to use and which to not)
3) Understanding - The 'Why' and 'how' giving boundaries to when and where,
the theories supporting the action break
down. (and they all do at some point)

I think these are the basics, not because they are 'basic' as in simple (that would depend on the individuals POV) but because IMHO they are the fundimental building blocks and each one is needed for good Kung Fu.

You then can take this IDEA of the basics and apply them to the fundimental ACTIONS needed in kung Fu.

Which some are obvious - horse - No horse No Kung Fu
and some are opinion - IMO elbow power etc etc.

This is just me thinking a-loud to get the ball rolling
Thoughts ????

[Edmund]

1) Form - How an action is done
2) Force - The energy at work (which ones to use and which to not)
3) Understanding - The 'Why' and 'how' giving boundaries to when and where,
the theories supporting the action break
down. (and they all do at some point)
...
Thoughts ????

While I don't disagree with what you've said, I can't see how you make a distinction between something that's basic and something that's advanced.

There's a sliding scale of things that are simple and things that are difficult. A student starts at the simple end and works towards the tougher stuff.

While it's generally a good idea to work on one thing at a time, I agree with Keng Geng that having only ONE basic doesn't really make sense. You're effectively useless with only a single skill/technique no matter how fundamental it is. It has to fit in with a SET of basics to give it context.

[Hendrik]

What is basic?
What is advance?
how does basic lead to advance?
is advance something grown from basic or totally different from basic?
is thinking needed to make basic into advance?
or droping away thinking about guide line is a path to advance?


What is a thinking/reasoning?
What is a physical action ?
does one think /reason while in physical action?
how is thinking with brain leads to physical action since thinking thoughts is not equal to body physical action?
Can thinking substitute body action?


What is a multidimentional chain punch?

[Matrix]

What is basic?
What is advance?

What difference does it make?

[bcbernam777]

What is basic?
What is advance?
how does basic lead to advance?
is advance something grown from basic or totally different from basic?
is thinking needed to make basic into advance?
or droping away thinking about guide line is a path to advance?


What is a thinking/reasoning?
What is a physical action ?
does one think /reason while in physical action?
how is thinking with brain leads to physical action since thinking thoughts is not equal to body physical action?
Can thinking substitute body action?


What is a multidimentional chain punch?

What is mindless philosophy with no real point?

[Hendrik]

What difference does it make?

Is one build on top of the others ?

[Hendrik]

What is mindless philosophy with no real point?

Is it a mindless philosoph with no real point?
or
Is it a series of questions probing the reality of the matter?

[kj]

Is it a mindless philosoph with no real point?
or
Is it a series of questions probing the reality of the matter?

It depends on who is doing the thinking.

Regards,
- kj

[Hendrik]

It depends on who is doing the thinking.

Regards,
- kj

Yup.

That is the truth.

Peace

[Matrix]

Is one build on top of the others ?

It is often described as building on top. If you are someone who is building a curriculum of study for students, you might approach it by teaching concepts and principles that build upon the previous skill. For example, YGKYM to shifting to stepping.
When you are a beginner, you may see stepping as an "advanced" skill. However, when you are further along in the curriculum your perspective may have changed, where you would see stepping/footwork as basic.
Things don't always fit into nice tidy labels of "basic" and "advanced".
As BCB says, there may be "no real point" in all of these mental gymnastics, but I still think there's value in challenging our own points of view, so that we don't get too rigid in our thinking.

[Hendrik]

It is often described as building on top. If you are someone who is building a curriculum of study for students, you might approach it by teaching concepts and principles that build upon the previous skill.

For example, YGKYM to shifting to stepping.
When you are a beginner, you may see stepping as an "advanced" skill. However, when you are further along in the curriculum your perspective may have changed, where you would see stepping/footwork as basic.


Things don't always fit into nice tidy labels of "basic" and "advanced".
As BCB says, there may be "no real point" in all of these mental gymnastics, but I still think there's value in challenging our own points of view, so that we don't get too rigid in our thinking.

Imho


I disagree with you.

take a solid example, say breathing.

"natural lower abdoment" breathing is advance compare with "chest breathing",
and the transition from chest to lower abs breathing took a few steps such as training in knowing the rythm, then deepen to reach the lower abs, then naturally resonancing with lower abs, or attain the breathing needed to sink qi to dan tien in the chinese term.

how can there be without basic breathing and advance breathing? take a test while exhale ask some one to look at your navel. if it is pointing upward to sky while exhale. then, that is it.

if not, even if one force inward the lower abs. that is not the nature lower abs breathing which is refer to the breathing which can sink qi to dan tien for slt. so, this stuff is well define.


So, that is breathing, now the yjkym, without the attaiment of the nature lower abs breathing the yjkym is not fully activate. and how about shifing? stepping? well without the yjkym fully activate the shifing or stepping is partial ...


Thus, imho, it is not about changing perspective or mental concept. it is all about kungfu. it is lots of work and lots of level of attainment. imho, it is not just about knowing some tricks in applications or different thinking patterns. There is basic and advance for they impact handling of the body mind integration.

on the end of the day, as the breathing, if the navel point towards the sky while contraction the abs, one has the Preparation kungfu for a strengthening internal organs and fajing. if not, then it is an external art or shallow or holding breathing which might do damaging to one's own heart or circulation when one is aging..


It is this type of basic and advance training procedule and steps or level that fading away in wck that weaken wck. imho.

just some thoughts

[Matrix]

it is all about kungfu. it is lots of work and lots of level of attainment. imho, it is not just about knowing some tricks in applications or different thinking patterns. There is basic and advance for they impact handling of the body mind integration.

Basic kung fu or advanced kung fu?

As for your breathing example. The "chest breathing" is just wrong, not basic, IMO.

You seem to be hung up on these labels. If you want to add these labels, feel free. It changes nothing. You can classify one thing as basic another as advanced, but it's just another step along the path.

Peace,

[Keng Geng]

You seem to be hung up on these labels. If you want to add these labels, feel free. It changes nothing. You can classify one thing as basic another as advanced, but it's just another step along the path.

I disagree. I feel labelling is important. It gives the practitioner of where they are at, and what they should be striving for in their Wing Chun. Obviously when it comes to the fight, wherever you're at is what comes out. You're not thinking about basic or advanced. However, when it comes to training and how you perceive your training, it is important.

I think too many schools proport a "Hey, whatever, it's all Wing Chun" approach to training. I attribute this way of thinking to poor chi sau perspective; the "whatever happens happens" approach to chi sau, instead of thorough breakdown and assessment of what happens in the exchange of energy and pressures.

Most, if not all would agree that Wing Chun is a science, yet according to the expressions of this thread, it is not. If it is a science, then levels, stages must be established where possible. Otherwise Wing Chun is a 3 dressed up as a 9, and we're only wasting our time.

[Hendrik]

Just for the fun of discussion.


As for your breathing example. The "chest breathing" is just wrong, not basic, IMO. -------


Hahaha
so majority of human are wrong?

care to share how do you breath ?





You seem to be hung up on these labels. If you want to add these labels, feel free. It changes nothing. You can classify one thing as basic another as advanced, but it's just another step along the path. -----------


You could be right.
I might be hung up on these labels.


and again,


You are right,

it is just another step along the path, however, does one even know how many steps needed to get from a to b without missing step? will a is not mistakenly taken or think as b.

IE: what is a keng geng? definition? basic traning to attain it? steps of training? or we just go out and define everything we do as Keng geng; even if what we do is solid pure muscular tension hard karate type of strike? how can a solid pure muscular tension strike is another step along the path? can soaking corn become french fry's?

so, french is label, fry is label, soak is label, potato is label, cooking oil is label...

just some thoughts

[Hendrik]

Obviously when it comes to the fight, wherever you're at is what comes out. You're not thinking about basic or advanced. However, when it comes to training and how you perceive your training, it is important.-------


imho
even in real life applications basic or advance shown. thus, the chinese term Kou Sau or advance/higher hand exist. a tan can be a basic disperse type or a lien siu dai da. those makes different. imho



I think too many schools proport a "Hey, whatever, it's all Wing Chun" approach to training. I attribute this way of thinking to poor chi sau perspective; the "whatever happens happens" approach to chi sau, instead of thorough breakdown and assessment of what happens in the exchange of energy and pressures. ------

I agree.
there is a different between give face and accepting whatever, it's all the same.






Most, if not all would agree that Wing Chun is a science, yet according to the expressions of this thread, it is not. If it is a science, then levels, stages must be established where possible. Otherwise Wing Chun is a 3 dressed up as a 9, and we're only wasting our time.----



I agree too.